06-02-66 JUNE 2, 1966.
A meeting was held at 4:00 P.M., Thursday, June 2, 1966, in the
Conference Room at the City Hall in Delray Beach with representatives
from the municipalities of Gulfstream, Briny. Breezes and Ocean Ridge,
regarding their use of the Delray Beach ocean cuffs11 sewer system.
Those present from Delray Beach were Mayor Al. C. Avery, City
Manager David M. Oatchel, City Attorney John Ross Adams, City Clerk
R. D. Worthing, Councilmen J. LeRoy Croft, James H. Jurney and Jack
L. Saunders.
Vice-Mayor William F. Koch, Jr. and Town Clerk Wm. Gwynn of Gulf-
stream represented that municipality.
Briny' Breezes was represented by Mayor Hugh David.
Ocean Ridge was represented by Mayor Pierce Brawner, Vice-Mayor
Mrs. Vi Holt~erg, and Councilman John W. Rossig.
Russell &Axon Consulting Engineers was represented by Project
Manager Daniel R. Neff and Registered Engineer John Tenant.
Mayor Avery called the meeting to order, welcomed the visitors
and continued as follows: "As far as the City of Delrsy Beach is con-
cerned, we are meeting strictlywith a spirit of helpfulness and co-
operation to our sister communities. If there is any area of disagree-
ment or change that is indicated I assure you that we will do every-
thing within our power ..... we recognize the fact that you have your
responsibilities to your citizens and we have to our citizens, and I
feel sure that when we walk out of here it will be in complete harmony
and agreement."
Mayor Avery then introduced those present, including the press,
and turned the meeting over to City Manager David M. Gatchel.
City Manager Gatchel: "Back in December, the City Council re-
ceived a report, which they had requested from Russell &Axon, having
to do with a proposed rate study in the event a common force main was
desired by the various communities to the north of us to connect with
our ocean outfall line. On December 15th this report was submitted to
the City Council of Delray Beach and was accepted as such. I believe
all of you representatives of our sister communities have received a
copy of this report. Am I correct Mr. Neff? (Mr. Neff said they had
not received copies unless sent by the City Manager.) It was in letter
form. At any rate, I believe this information has been given, at least
in part, to all of you for your consideration. After talking with Mr.
Koch this past week I found that this meeting today was indicated. I
think that ! should turn this meeting over to you Bill, or some of the
representatives of the Communities. I think all of you had questions
as to this possible tie in with the outfall line that we have here to
serve the sanitary needs of all the communities. Bill, would you like
to start it off with questions and what has transpired in your various
meetings that resultedin this meeting here today."
Mr. Koch: "First of a11, I want to thank Delray Beach for their , ..
attitude toward our community, and I am sure the rest of you feel the
same way. We are trying to work out something that represents the best
interests of all our constituents as well as what we think Would be
fair to Delray. We have had several meetings and discussed the letter
form of charges and rates. I believe that we received a break down of
these charges and there are certain items on here that I don't know if
they really apply to the operation the way we understand it as far as
Gulfstream and Ocean Ridge are concerned. In the price figure on the
gallonage you have a profit which is alright .... .018 and then you h~ve
an overhead of .015. What would that overhead charge be?"
Conf. 6-2-.66
City Manager ~atchel= "I would like to refer this question to Dan
Neff. I have some comments I would like to mske, but ss to the
vidual itimization here, I ~ould like to refer you to Dan. ! will say
that Russell & Axon, in preparing this rate study, have used as a ba-
sis for it a contract which was negotiated over about a two year period
.~ and ultimately entered into between the co~munities of Hialeah and
North Miami Beach, with Hialeah using the ocean outfall line that North
Miami ~each had. I think Dan has more detailed figures as to the break-
down and the items which he included in these two charges that you re-
ferred to, the overhead and the profit items."
Mr. Neff= "In the first place, the bond indenture of Delray Beach
which has bonded themselves now to 5.2 million dollars in bonds and the
net income at all times has got to equal 125 per cent of the debt ser-
vice. Applying that ratio to the other charges, it comes up with the
minimum profit permitted under the bond indenture of 1.6 cents per
thousand gallons. The overhead item, as Bill said, is not completely
supported in the report, but in general we figured the cost of the
ocean outfal!. The total cost of the ocean outfallbeyond the point in
which it will be used by the three northern towns was $680,687.00. The
design of flow in the ocean outfall~is 7500 gallons per minute. The
design flows which are used, coming through the force mains to go out
that ocean outfall, are 850 gallons per minute, so that gives us a
ratio which is used throughout the reDort. Dividing 850 by 7500 gives
you 0.1 and a string of threes which is about 0.11 and we applied that
ratio to the administrative overhead. It also includes a catastrophe
fund. Delray has to set up, and does, a fund for possible hurricane
damage to this outfall which cost $681,000. roughly. We applied that
to the whole administrative overhead and the portions of the catastro-
phe fund that would be applicable. It may be high, or it may be low,
but I think ..... I have tried personally to come up with something that
was absolutely fair for everybody concerned. The agreement, when it is
ultimately negotiated between Delray and the three towns to the north
will provide for a renegotiation of the gallonage charge at the end of
each year based (quote) 'upon the actual experience which I would ex-
pect in accordance with the actual record of operating expenses~."
Mr. Koch= "On this overhead, didn't this Hialeah contract .....
wasn't the billing and everything done by North Miami Beach? Didn't
that include the billing and everything, which in our case we would do
our own billing. There wouldn't be these overhead charges. This is
one thing that wasn't quite clear to me."
Mr. Neff: "I can understand that, but although we used Hialeah as
a base, and I think Hialeah ended up with a flat gallonage charge
which could come up. This gallonage charge here figures out as start-
ing out at .11~ and working out over the next twenty years down to
about .09~ per thousand gallons. What I say is that we believe this
is a fair point of departure. The contract itself will provide that
it would be re-examined each year in accordance with the actual record
of operating expenses and my suggestion would be to say this is a fair
point of departure. Delray's experience over the next year, subject to
audit even, if necessary, but generally acceptable, would be used as a
guide for the following year. I don~t think anybody can be hurt the
first year by these charges inasmuch as they would be subject to re-
negot~ation. I personally don~t know of any better way to start off
in recommendations, and I am in a diff~cult position here. Ihave
tried to come up with something that is fair to everybody and if the
fairness is questioned, I can only say that I think it would be good
business to start off with this as a basis and then negotiate at the
end of a year. It may go down a few tenths of a cent or up a few
tenths of a cent, but I am sure that at that time, after one.'vear of
ex~reience, that we will all be in better shape to know how to do it.
All of these outfalls cost a different amount of money in the flow in
proportion to design flow. It is very difficult to work out any com-
parison. For instance, Lake Worth~s outfall is concrete pipe. Our
-2- Conf. 6-2-66
pipe is much more expensive, we used 850 feet of malox at $274.00 per
~oot and 457§ feet of ductile iron at $82.00 a foot. Subject to the
agreement, and I think~this is more or less me sitting on the sideline,
and the Councilmen and Mayors of the various communities discussing
the issue, my recommendation to every one would be that this is the
best and fairest thing that I can come up with, and it is subject to
renegotiation within one year.based on actual records of experience,
and it seems to me that at that time if any operating discrepencies
in these records show up, the adjustments could be made, and in the
meantime neither Delray Beach, Briny · Breezes. Ocean Ridge or Gulf-
stream would be seriously hurt, because the main charges here, the
amortization of the bonds, and I think that is a pretty clear cut
thing has been determined."
Mr. Koch: "Everybody wants to work something out that is right, but
there is some fallacy in waiting a year. If there are certain things
that don't apply like these other contractors figured based on this
other contract, certain services that aren't going to be rendered by
Delray Beach, they might as well be eliminated now so that a year from
now you don't have that to consider."
Mayor Avery: "I don't know whether Dan Neff answered your question
or not. Did he?"
Mr. Saunders: "I know that when we asked Russell & Axon to come in
with a report to us we didn't care whether they used Hialeah or Podunk
Center. We asked that they come in with something to us that would be
fair, primarily to the City of Delray Beach, and incidentally to the
other people in the surrounding territory. We figured we had an in-
vestment here that we had to protect and we wanted to make sure that
basicallywe were covered. We weren't trying to make a big profit on
it but we did want to make sure that we had enough expense in this
thing, enough revenue coming back, to cover us on it. That is primar-
ily what we want in this, and that is what we asked them for, and we
think that is what they came back with. It may be off, I don't know."
Mayor Pierce Brawner: "Mr. Avery, Iwould like to Say one thing.
This renegotiation after a year ...... suppose we don't agree. We had
the unfortunate experience I think you are all familiar with, with
Boynton. We started, say the first year was $1,500.00, the next year
was $3,000. and the next time they come in they wanted $6,000. We
haven't got anything to renegotiate. They say that you take that or
we don't bother with you."
Mayor Avery: "I was sitting here thinking the same thing Mayor
Brawner, that if I were in your position I would want some ceiling set
in this thing in the renegotiation area. If I were in your position
and you in mine I would want some ceiling set because contrary to what
Dan says, if you go to the expense of putting in this pressure main all
the way to Ocean Ridge and after renegotiation we can't get together
and they say .50~ a thousand, then you are boged with all of this ex-
pense in here, in building or something else, and it is not as simple
as just renegotiating at the end of every year. You have an expense
in there and you have to take that into consideration."
Mr. Rossig: "I understood Mr. Neff when he came up to talk with us
that the renegotiation would only be based on the cost of chemicals and
the cost of labor. Those are tw~ things that are easy to decide, but
other renegotiations could get you into serious trouble."
Mr. Koch: "I think if you have a formula0 I think he-tried to put
a formula in here, but I think there are certain things that should
be eliminated that don't apply. I agree with you Jack that the town
of Delray should be amply protected and it is a good thing that it is
not a one way deal either way. It is a good thing for the town to
amortize and I am sure your taxpayers would not object."
,3- Conf 6-2-66
Mayor Avery: "When we asked Russell &Axon, and I will back Jack
up in this, the only criteria we gave them is to bring to us something
that would be fair to all concerned."
... Mr. Neff: "Can I qu~te once again: 'The Engineers recommend that
any agreement by the City of Delray Beach with the towns of
Breezes, Gulfstream and Ocean Ridge should include provisions whereby
the rates will be adjusted at the end of each year's operation in ac-
cordance with the actual record of operating expenses.' It was my
thought that the record of operating expenses of a public body would
be a matter of public record subject to audit and subject to exact
termination. I don't think they could be changed or revised or padded.
Every city has good accounting methods, I know Delray has. If they
are advised, the Lawyers can probably put it into better language than
this that everybody will agree to, to be revised in accordance with
actual record of operating expenses. You have to know what items are
going to be pUt in as operating expense."
Mr. Neff: "That can be spelled out in the Contract."
Mr. Koch: "They should spell out this operating expense very clear-
ly."
Mr. Neff: This is something that I am quite sure we will have to
protect you on, because the force main is going to cost you $125,000.
and you have to have a protection on the disposal of that, and the
other question you raised about who owns the force main at the end of
thirty years. I think those are the things the legal people will have
to decide."
Mr. John Tenant: "I have worked with a contract whereby a sanitary
district was purchasing water from a municipality and that contract had
an automatic formula. It wasn't for renegotiation every year. The City
water department, at the end of the year, the audit showed what their
cost was per thousand gallons for manufacturing water and to this was
applied a percentage of profit and that is what the sanitary district
was charged each year."
Mr. Brawner, "Of course all of that is quite simple, but this is
quite different and experience is one of our best teachers. In our
negotiation for fire protection, Russell &Axon, I think, when they set
up the set-up for Boynton water department and selling of the bonds,
put an arbitrary charge of $?5.00 per hydrant which the fire depart-
ment paid to the water department and made the water department's
revenue look good to sell the bonds. I have no objection to that, I
think that's fine, but when they try to put that into the cost of fire
protection to another town, then I say that no fire plug is worth four
or five times what a meter going to a house for a daily use of water is.
There is no relationship between the two. How they finance their bonds
is one thing, but when you put an arbitrary charge into your sewer dis-
posal that has no relationship to anything other than making your bonds
look good, I don't think we would have to participate in that. That is
the point ! was trying to make."
Mr. Koch: "Suppose we just approach this thing on the basis of .07,
per thousand gallons, or some figure, and forget this minimum charge,
etc, and whatever you put in of course would be paid out of this, with
all these mains in the cities and compensations and whatever you would
have would belong to Delray anyway. Over the period of years pay it
out that way, and then we aren't really investing any money, we are
just paying the regular charge. The communitywould have no claim,
Gulfstream or anybody else, on anything that was put in in Delray.
Under this system I think you are almost saying we are participating
in that part of the system."
City Manager Gatchel: "I would like to say this for the information
of all. I haven't had a chance to even tell Council about this~ but
this morning our Fiscal Agents were in the office and we ware
-4- Conf. 6-2-66
discussing, just as a sideline, this meeting here this afternoon, and
I did go over with them briefly how this charge is to be made, a flat
capital charge which would remain constant throughout the life of the
contract, and then the gallonage charge whichwould be renegotiated.
It all adds up, as Mr. Neff mentioned, to about .11¢ per thousand gal-
lons. Our Fiscal Agents were ..... their remark was that they have known
of similar contracts between communities in which the gallonage charge
was as high as .10¢ alone without the capitalized flat cost over the
life of the bond issue."
Mr. Neff: "It goes down to about 8%¢ as the use builds up."
City Manager Gatchel: "For those who didn't hear me right, I said
that this is strictly for a gallonage charge basis, plus capital costs,
is their experience with these, and they were a little amazed that we
could get this figure down to as little as .05¢ per thousand at the
outset of these negotiations. They just offered that as a way of
formation. They made no further comment about it."
Mr. Koch: "According to the other communities around here, their
basis is ..... Lantana .05¢ without any charge. Atlantis .07¢ without
any charge, we are talking about a base charge, and there is another
community up there at .07¢, so as far as our local areas here that
we are talking about a reasonable distance, this price that you have
here would be better for Delray than any of the other communities that
are selling in the area."
Mr. Neff: "They are not comparable. For instance, Atlantis .... We
worked out' those rates a~'~that time and they are going through a cheap-
er outfall, they are not working against three pumps as in Delray if
we go directly into the outfall. It is pretty hard to get a comparable
rate. Lantana's rate is too cheap, they are going to renegotiate and
they know that now."
Mr. Koch: ',Didn't Lake Worth actually put in the pipes to Atlantis
and to the Hospital."
Mr. Neff: "But they paid for it all. Lake Worth let the contract,
but the school and the hospital paid for the whole thing. It was
$125,000."
Mr. Tenant: "It was a three way split there. The Jr. College,
Atlantis and Lake Worth. Lantana didn't pay anything for their pipes.
Another point ! would like to make .... I'm not exactly sure, but it
seems to me there was, on the Lake Worth Contract, Altantis and Palm
Beach Junior College and I was thinking there was another one."
Mr. Neff: "Kennedy Hospital. Three people. They paid the total
cost of it. I worked that out. Atlantis, the Jr. College ..... it took
two years to work that agreement out."
Mr. Tenant: "Didn't they bring their system to the new pumping
station that Lake Worth built, at their own expense."
Mr. Neff: "Yes. One other point I want to make is that Delray,
under this agreement, is obligated to spend around $42,000. for the
force main within the limits of Delray Beach, and in order to amortize
that alone takes a little over $200,000. of the total monthly charge
against the three towns."
Someone asked. "Will the other places along A1A use that main?"
Mr. Neff: "Nobody."
Mayor Avery: "This Would be built by Delray Beach from our City
limits and we won't use it. In fact, this would have pressure on it,
-5- Conf. 6-2-66
and to uae it we would have to put in a lift station to do it, and we
are going to remain with Lift Station No. 18 which is down on Andrews
Avenue, and go in that way."
Mr. Neff: "Everything is presently served by gravity."
City Manager Gatchel: "Everything on Ocean Boulevard is presently
sewered and would have no connection to that line."
Mr. Koch: UThe next question is would it be feasible, instead of
putting this expensive force main down ~iA, and we might even be sub-
ject to erosion if things donlt work right there, to let it go into
the Andrews Avenue Lift Station."
Mr. Neff: "That's the way we figured, but over a period of thirty
years, it works out better for everybody to go directly in the ocean.
It would mean that you would have to put larger pumps in Lift Station
18 on Andrews Avenue."
~ Mr. Koch: "Could I make a suggestion here? If you could instruct
Russell & Axon to break this down, these charges, and show what things
really make these up, and if we see some things in here that we know
arenlt part of the responsibility of the adjoining communities, we
eliminate those and work from that basis."
Mr. Saunders: "Do I understand that you would like this on a
gallonage basis?"
Mr. Koch: "That's one approach. ~ersonally, I think that would
be better for our community."
Mr. Saunters: "I understand from Hr. Neff that we can't put it
strictly on a gallonage basis, that we have to have a certain amount
in there guaranteed."
Mr. Koch: "Isn't there a duplicate charge in here in that the fix-
ed charges are presumed to be our pro rata share of the bond issue in
accordance with what we would use. Mr. Neff said it was necessary for
you to make this 1.8 profit because your bond issue said that you had
to have a surplus, 125 per cent of your services, so isn't there a
duplicate charge there. We are already presumably, in this capital
expenditure, taking care of our pro rata share of what has to go into
your sinking fund and the interest."
Mayor Avery: "David, do you understand what he is saying."
City Manager Gatchel: "I understand what he is saying, I wanted
to see what Dan~s answer is."
Mr. Neff: "I will have to think that one out. You may have a point."
Mr. Koch: "That is something that if we have this break down ..... "
Mayor Avery: "We are thinking with you. You have this responsibi-
lity to your citizens."
Mr. Koch: "If you could break this down, then we would know exactly
what we are talking about."
Mr. Rossig: "I don't ~hink there is a disagreement. We are just
trying to find out what is a 9roper cost."
Mr. Koch: "If we have that information, ! think we could get to-
gether again and make a real quick decision, as long as we know what
we are talking about."
Mr. David: "I have another question. This has been been brought up
-6- Conf. 6-2-66
by people with other motives than what might be considered in the in-
terest of getting us together, that the outfall here is dumping raw
sewage into the ocean and that the health authorities and the Army
Engineers and everybody else are saying that it just can't be done.
That raw sewage is being dumped out there and flows back in and sooner
or later you are going to have to build a treatment plant here which
is going to run into millions of dollars. Is there anything to that?"
Mayor Avery: "I think that I am as well qualified as anyone to
answer this. This is absolutely untrue. Your design factor is depth
of water because of dilution. The design feature was at 92 feet but
in going out and getting into the gulfstream we wound up at a depth of
110 feet. We are well into the gulfstream and this sewage is committed,
completely ground up so there are no solids and then sterilized with
chlorine. This will be done in your plant too, sterilized with chlo-
rine.and then injected into the ocean so when it goes into it, it is
in a quickly soluble state. If there was anything that came back, we
wouldn't know it anyway, because it would be in minute particles; how-
ever, we did have fluorescein dye tests on this thing both right at
the mouth of it, twenty five feet up and on the surface, and a plane
flying over checking this thing out. The fluorescein dye just
mediately disappeared in the current into the gulfstream. Samples
were taken, the State Board of Health can back this up and they have
this as their records. YoU don't have to take our word for it, and
only right at the mouth could they find any trace of sewage because
just a few feet above there was absolutely none. This does immedia-
tely go into dilution and they can find no trace of it only a few feet
away from it. The State Board of Health, I was on one of these tests
with Mr. David Lee the Chief Engineer of the State Board of Health. I
was on another test with Ralph Baker. I went on the test at Pompano
and on the test at Lake Worth. These tests were conducted by and
supervised by the State Board of Health and they have it as a matter
of record and can give you the reassurance you want. Mr. David Lee
and Ralph Baker were both completely sold. This was the only way I
ever went for ocean outfall to start with, because Mr. David Lee who
is the Chief Engineer said that if he was sitting on our Council he
would do it. Does that answer your question?"
Mr. Koch: "Thank you Al. I think it does, perfectly, and from my
point of view I would rather drink a little bit of the water from the
breakers on the beach here than I would out of the canal where other
sewage that is being treated is discharged."
Mr. Tenant: "I would like to add to that. The City of North Miami
Beach hes recently installed and has in operation an outfall system.
It is my understanding that the State Board of Health would like to do
this all over the State of Florida. It is only on the southeast coast
of Florida that the gulfstream is close enough to get into. .It is also
my understanding that the City of Miami is contemplating extending
their line. Their outfall line doesn't extend nearly as far as some of
these others, and it is my understanding that they are planning on ex-
tending their line further out."
Mayor Avery~ "But again, the design criteria is depth of water as
opposed to the current in the gulfstream."
Mayor Avery: "You have been pretty quiet there. Do you have any-
thing to offer?"
Mayor David: "I would like to thank Delray for their offer. Of
course Mr. Brawner, Bill Koch and I are committees of our own communi-
ties and we have met several times. I think you have covered our
questions on the breakdown of the cost. There are two questions in the
discussions that we had. This is presented as a thirty year contract,
and we were wondering, I imagine this would come under legal, after
the thirty years what are we going to do. Would we maybe enter into
some options in this agreement. I assume you all have the same
-7- Conf. 6-2-66
agreement and your attorney has gone over it, but we discussed that
matter. I think another matter would be ..... let's say if we sat down
today and signed this contract and all agreed, when would these charges
start? It might take us a little while to get into operation. I don't
believe there was any point as to when this contract would be starting.
If we signed it today, we wouldn't be going into your system for pos-
sibly a year. By the time we have the intercepter sewer designed, let
the contracts, etc. it could be a year, a year and a half, before we
would actually be going into your system."
Mayor Avery: "I would quickly assume that the charges would start
when we would start receiving your sewerage."
Someone asked. "Could you wait 2% years?"
Mayor David: "We couldn't wait that long. We were saying it might
be a year. It might be a year and a half or two years."
Mayor Avery: "It would seem to me that the only fair way is that
you could not be charged as long as we are not receiving your by-
product. When that meter starts ticking it means that your sewage is
going beyond that, and that, and that only will determine the charges.
How are you going to charge without a meter."
Mayor David: "I thought that too, but we wanted to make sure when
this would go, because naturally the day we sign the contract we won't
be going.into your system."
Mayor Avery: "Roy, is that the way you see it?"
Mr. Croft: "It seems to me we would have to be guided kinda by the
way we do with our own citizens here. Whenever it is accepted, the
sewer system is accepted for operation, somebody has got to start pay-
ing. We are charging our own citizens here whether they are hooked to
it or not whenever it is accepted. It seems like we would be governed
by that to some extent too. If we have to spend some $40,000. or
$50,000. I believe Mr. Neff said, we don't want to spend that and just
leave it there dormant for two or three years."
Mr. Koch: "You are going to have part of Gulfstream on next year.
The Bath and Tennis Club next year aren't you?"
City Manager Gatchel: "The request has come in Bill, but there has
been no determination made. I feel such a meeting as this and the pro-
blem of the three communities as a whole is far greater than the one
location. This will have some bearing I think."
Mayor Brawner: "The point I think I was bringing out here, naturally,
we know that you are going to be putting in this force main for us
during the summer while A1A is shut down, and of course you are paying
for it now. Would we start paying on the amortization at this point if
we sign a contract this summer? Of course naturally the gallonage we
wouldn't be paying until we would be putting our sewers in. I think we
have 'two breakdowns."
Mr. Neff: "I think it would be fair to pay on the amortization of
the force main alone, but not on any other portion of the system until
such time as it comes into use. Because when Delray Beach makes that
investment from their Bond Fund, then they have to start accepting re-
sponsibility.''
Mayor Brawner: "You said that is approximately $200.00 per month."
Mr. Neff answered "yes".
City Manager Gatchel: '!Am I correct in my assumption that we are
not going to have to put a lift station or pumping station on our
force main?" -~- Conf. 6-9-66
Mr. Neff: "No. We are now planning going directly into the outfall
llr0e with a 'Y' on Atlantic Avenue.~'
City Manager Gatchel: "All we are providing then is a force main
for this installation?"
Mr. Neff: "Yes."
City Manager Gatchel: "May I ask some questions here that have come
to my mind? Are your communities, the three of them, pretty much pre-
pared if such an agreement is worked out with the City of Delray, to
provide for your own sewer installation?"
Mayor Brawner: I don't think there is any question about my com-
munity. We have been going around the horn here for three years on
sewerageand we have been looking into three directions, to be honest
with you. Originally when Russell & Axon came to us it was unfeasible
to come into your system was the recommendation. Then they completed
our feasibility report and recommended that we go to Boynton or build
our own plant. I think the cost of going to Boynton and its operation
between the outfall and the treatment that they have is considerably
much higher than to build our own plant, which we have been considering
doing, but the health department will not grant us a permit to put in
our own treatment plant due to the fact that while Delray is in the
offering, or Boynton is in the offering, they are not in favor of a
small treatment plant. I think this has shown up in Ocean Ridge with
the Colonial Ridge development where that is only a temporary permit
for a sewer treatment plant; however, we can't even get a temporary
permit as long as these two offerings are ~n the air. I have a letter
from Lawrence Luki and I have the permission of my corporation to go
ahead and negotiate this and we would like to get this sewerage on the
road as soon as possible. I don't know whether the other towns have
the problems that we have, or are having. We do have some problems
that have to be corrected as soon as possible."
Mayor Avery: "It seems to me like we all have the same problems
when it comes to sewers."
Mayor David: "Our community is ready to cooperate, and we will have
to worry about our own collection system, but we will raise that money
within our community. We have money at this time as far as our pro
rata share for the intercepter sewer, and if it were designed and ready
to go we have money to go now. It is in the bank, so I am not afraid
about that portion of it."
City Manager Gatchel: "How about Ocean Ridge?"
Mayor Brawner: "Ocean Ridge at present has no money; however, our
credit is exceptionally good now and I don't think we will have any
difficulty in raising it. Incidentally, of the offers that have come
in to Ocean Ridge, we would certainly have to investigate, although I
think this is the answer."
Mayor Avery: "In building these sewage treatment plants, when I was
with a construction firm, the basic cost per thousand gallons was about
.25¢. That is usually about where they start, not speaking only of
Boynton, because I understand their's is in line with West Palm and
everywhere else. The cost of a sludge treatment process is about .25¢
per thousand gallons."
Mayor Avery: "If we can arrive at something here in the area we are
working, we are working in the area of a fifth to a fourth of that cost.
It makes it attractive to all concerned. It gives us a little profit,
our taxpayers a little profit, and it gives you a decided advantage
over the other type of treatment planto There is one question that has
been raised, and Bill has touched on it but I don't think has gotten an
-9- Conf. 6-2-66
answer to it. Being a thirty year contract, and it is presumed that
this amount of money is being set up as a capital item will amortize
the cost of the outfall and the.other system so far as our partici-
pation is concerned. Would it then be proper that we would have a
preempted right to continue merely by paying whatever maintenance it
takes to maintain the lines? I think we should have that in the
contract."
Mayor Avery: "Once this capital investment is amortized we shouldn't
have any right to make you keep on amortizing it. I think we are in
complete agreement on that."
Mr. Saunders: "It should be spelled out in the contract. Thirty
years from now you could get some crack pots on this Council."
Mr. Croft: "I just wanted to ask Mr. Koch if his town is financially
able to go into this."
Mayor Avery: "We want Russell & Axon to break these overhead items
down, and go over them with the individual communities before we come
together, and then if we hit in this an area that seems to be a brick
wall then we will come back together and through our City Manager,
Consulting Engineers and your personnel reach an agreement, then we can
produce a contract that will be acceptable to everybody and then if it
is necessary to have an agreement to sign a contract .... whatever is de-
sired by the individual communities, we will do."
Mr. Koch: "If you can eliminate the things that are double charged
in here I am sure we will have something that will be equitable. That's
what I want to find out, if it is a double charge."
Mayor Brawner: "Aren't we very much in agreement and all it re-
quires is if the engineers can come up with giving us the figures.
First the monthly charge and they are going to support the gallonage
charge."
Mayor Avery: "I have a feeling we are in complete agreement, The
City of Delray Beach does not want to subject you to any double or
unfair charges. Your communities do not want us to give you something
for nothing. It's just that simple."
Mr. Koch: "We agree on this pipe, amortizing. If we go ahead on
this thing we all agree to pay our portion on amortizing the pipe until
we start pumping. I think we all agree on that, and then we agree that
there will be some extension on the contract."
Mayor Avery: "If you start earlier, thirty years ends earlier, and
it balances out, If it was going to be something outlandish, then you
would have to be taxing your citizens with a use tax that there is no
use for."
Mr. Neff: "Could I say something more? There are two elements in
the working in getting all of our minds together on this and of course
one is the fa%es and the charges and the other is the legal phrasing
of the contract. I would like to suggest that the Attorneys from each
town get together with the Delray Beach Attorney and see if they can
agree on the wording of the contract during the interim period."
Mayor Brawner: "Our Attorney has already passed on this provided we
agree to the things that are in here. In other words, the form of it
is satisfactory. It is only a question of these things we have been
talking about. The amortization charge, how long it is going to last,
what it is to cover, when the meter charge is going to start, and that
is obviously when the meter starts turning, and what is going to happen
after we have paid for the system. When I say 'we' I am speaking of
the four communities. As far as the form of it is concerned .... I
-10- 6-2-66
think most of you know Grover Herring. I think most of you have very
good respect for each other. I have no question about the Commission-
ers not agreeing." __ ~
Mayor David: "Our Attorney is EVans Crary of Stuart. He has given
an opinion of this contract, but i~ out of town right now. I have an
opinion from our attorney and there were just three 'minor things which
he suggested that I will be glad to give to Mr. Adams and he can get
in touch with Attorney Crary."
City Attorney Adams. "It is hard for any attorney to draft an
agreement until it has been agreed on. I think Crary, Lilienthal and
Herring would all say the same thing. We can't very well put it into
words until there has been an agreement. I have a few minor questions
about this myself, but basically the form I think is alright."
City Manager Gatchel: "The various and sundry things that we have
mentioned here today are a matter of record on this tape and will be a
matter of record of the minutes which we will take from this tape and
send to you. I think this will be a very good basis for injecting
these various and sundry questions that we have had here this afternoon,
and too, the rate study itself and the contract. There are some of
these items that should be a matter of contract consideration, in my
opinion."
Mayor Brawner: "I would suggest, M~. Avery, that if it is satis-
factory to you, that as soon as Mr. Neff gets a copy of this discussion,
and the three towns are given a copy Of it, that he arrange a meeting
of those three towns, he representing Delray Beach as the Engineer, and
see then whether we can argue with ~im to the point where he agrees
what he will recommend to your Council."
Mayor Avery: "This is exactly what we want to do. Break these
charges down and present them to you people to reach a level of agree-
ment and then bring it to Delray Beach to reach a level of agreement
and when this thing comes back to us it come back harmonious."
Mayor Brawner: "The point I wanted to make is that I would rather
he meet with the three towns together, father.than the towns individu-
ally, and then if one agrees to something the other knows."
Mayor Avery: "I had a talk sometime back Bill with your Mayor
Stewart Iglehart and he indicated and we agreed that post haste was
indicated so we will instruct our Engineers that we want this thing
consummated as quickly as possible because this is the only way you are
going to cope with your problems that exist in the communities today."
Someone asked how long that would take and Mr. Neff said about a week.
Mr. Neff: "I would like to say that this meeting is very gratifying
to me. I felt like I have been punching at a feather bed for two years
and now it looks like it may work out."
City Manager Gatchel: "I wanted to add one thing here. The Town
of Gulfstream has addressed a letter to the City of Delray Beach with
regard to the immediate problem of the Gulfstream Bath and Tennis Club.
They are really in a bind there. They really can't do anything with the
State Board of Health approval, so since this meeting has resulted in
an agreement here which is apparently going to be resolved in a matter
of a short period of time, I feel it advisable to hold off on this
Gulfstream Bath and Tennis Club problem until we get back together,
which is just around the corner. Gulfstream Bath and Tennis Club has
applied, through the ToTM of Gulfstream, to tap onto our sewer system.
There is a manhole right at the corner of their property and this could
possibly be worked out between the communities now since all of us are
apparently near a point of agreement, this could probably be a portion
of the overall agreement reached. 'So we will just hold off until this
meeting. ,11- Conf 6-2-66
Mayor Avery= "Mrs. Holtberg, do you have anything to add to this?"
Mrs. Holtberg= "I think Mayor Bra~ner has exgressed all of our
ogin~ons very well."
Mr. Rossig= "I feel the same way, Mayor Avery."
City Attorney Adams= "Has the area between Briny Breezes and
Gulfstream, has that County area already been reckone~ with?"
Mayor Brawner: "Only to this extent. At our meeting about a
month ago Mr. Warren was there and he said that for the County they
would take their pro rata share of what~ver turned up. Also there is
a slight area that Boynton Beach has annexed."
The meeting adjourned at 5=30 P.M.
-12- Conf. 6-2-66