03-19-65SpMtg MARCH 19, 1965.
Special..Meetingiheld at 9~30 P.M., Friday~.' March 19th,- 1965~ at the
City Hall.
Mayor Avery: "If I am not mistaken, our Charter states, that a special
meeting can be called by either the Mayor or three members of the
Council upon written notice. Councils in the past, many times that I
have sat on, have waived this when all were present and it would be
my thinking, unless the City Attorney overruled it and of course, I
wouldn't attempt to rule, but it would be my thinking that you certain-
ly have the prerogative to call a special meeting tonight since we are
all present. Is that correct, Mr. Worthing?" Mr. Worthing stated that
was correct, and Mayor Avery continued. "I think that for the purpose
of calling this meeting, it should be on the record as to who called
the meeting, so verbally I will call the roll and just for the tape,
Mr. Croft---as one that is calling this special meeting."
Mr. Croft: "Well, .yes, I'll go along with it."
Mayor Avery: "Mr. J~rney" Mr. jurney answered "yes".
Mayor Avery called on Mr. Saunders and Mr. Talbot,who both said "yes'%
and continued: '~Thank you..~ ! ~vote no, because I did not call the
meeting. This establishes'that itwas legally called as far as we
know, and I think we are correct. First, gentlemen, I would caution
yo~ on the reason." .~ .~ ~.
Mr]~ Croft: "For the purpose of it."
]Mr.'Jurne~: ~'~idon'% kn~W ~ha~bermin619gy you~.want"~ ~cal~.i.i%~ ~ut
:it'iS'for'the ~em°val Of !t~e city ~a~r., Mr.. Ho~!~,d¢~r0.~-.hi,~ office,
and ~or the remov 1 o~ Mr.-: 'r-'~--~-
Mr.~Talb°~': (remarks ne~ understandable.) ,- i .....
Mayor.Avery= "And for any other, business that may come be~$re the
meeting."
Mr. Jurney:~' "And for any other business that may come before the
meeting.."
M~yor Avery: "Do you ~gree to that, Mr. Croft,. Mr. Saunders, Mr.
Talbot~ -NOw gentlemen, at the start of this meeting I would caution
you.agains~ .the wisdom,~, which iS your prerogatSve, of c0urse,~of do,.
~ng'ii{.,.~ .~g impact OD.the PubliC, 'but 'you have called a meet'.Ln~g
~nd 'it 'i~';Xm~ally Ca l!ed ..and 'we' Will~ .Pro~~ed. . This. meeting is. nPW -
open 'for Shy motions that any members o.f the council wish .~o b~£ng,"
Mr. Jurney: "I so move that Mr. Holland be removed from his job'as
City Manager.of the City of De!ray Beach as per the agreement .... I
don't think that is necessary, I'll make that motion effective as of
Apr$1 .bth, but that his job b~-'----that ha be rem0=ed from his job as
of tonight, but inasmuch as he '.has some V~Cation that is due him,
I believe, it is two weeks, plus one montHS severance pay."
Mayor Avery:~ "Is that motion clear to you gentlemen?"
Mr. Talbot: .,'It is not exactly clear. In other words,are you moving
that Mr. Holland be relieve~ of his Position as City Manager effective
immediately with two. weeks pay,which, . he has vacation. .c°ming,. ,.plus. ~.one
mont~s severance pay, which was agreed last night?" 3-19-65
78.
Mr. Jurney: "That's correct."
Mayor Avery= "Is there a second to that motion?"
Mr. Croft= "Well, I thought that---I thought that---'you didntt
second it, you just asked."
Mr. Talbot= "I was attempting to clarify the motion."
Mr. Jurney= "Thatis exactly what I said."
Mayor Avery= '"Is there a second to the motion?"
Mr. Saunders= "I'11 second it."
Mayor Avery= "It was moved by Mr. Jurney and seconded by Mr. Saunders.
Gentlemen, I think that again,you owe it to the public to be specific
in your reasons. I only give you this as advice from the chair and
is there discussion to the motionS"
Mr. Talbot= "Mr. Chairman. In answer to your advice from the Chair,
I would say that ~he Charter provides that there is no reason neces-
sary for the dismissal Of a City Manager."
Mayor Avery=. "You are correct, Mr. Talbot."
Mr. Talbot= "I also wish to add that at the meeting last night, may
I mention where it was held?"
Mr. Croft= "It was in the papers this morning.'*
Mr. Talbot= "At Mr. Crofts house, that I thought that we had appeased
Mr. Holland by each individual explaining his position as to Why we
thought it was in the best interests of the City that he be removed.
It was also my understanding that we all shook hands, that Bob stated
that he accepted our position. I also will add that we. apologized to
Bob in the fact that we admitted that we went at it in a wrong way,
whereas entrusting you to carry the information, we should have had
the foresight to'have had Bob in on the meeting which was held at the
residence of George Talbot. Should I put tdamn lie~ after that?"
Mayor Avery= "No sir. No sir, Mr. Talbot, that is not necessary. I
only made my ...... my advice was because I feel that the public is
entitled to know, and the public is going to ask you. It is up to
you, but the public is entitled to know, and that was the only reason
I made my statement."
Mr. Talbot= "Mr. Chairman, more to the motion. The reason I lied is
because ! didn't think it was going to be made public information and
I was trying to.protect Mr. Holland from any embarrassment when I
lied.. If I was put in the same position, I would lie again to the
press."
Mayor Avery= "I'..don~t know what lie you are talking abou~ Mr. Talbot."
Mr. Talbot= ''*The fact that I said I had not been to a meeting, and I
knew of no meetings, when you said y6u had been to George Talbot~s
house, which was true, when this took place."
Mayor Avery= "I haven't seen. the article to which you are referring."
Mr. Talbot= "I will buy you a g01d plated issue of the Miami Herald
Mayor Avery= "Further discussion to the motion."
-2- 3-19-65
Mr. Saunders= "Referring to the tape, as we brought out last night,
each person expressed himself as liking Mr. Holland~ there is nothing
personal in it. It's my opinion, at this particular point in our
City Administration, we need the services of a professionally trained
man. I feel that We as Councilmen have the prerogative and right to
do what we consider to be to the best interests of the City of Delray
Beach. I'm satisfied that each person on this Council is doing that,
including you,Mr. Mayor, even though you have voted in another way.
You are as sincere in your belief as ! am in mine. We all have our
opinions and we all don't have to' vote alike. That's mine."
Mr. Croft= "Yes, Mr. Mayor, I must say that I am still disturbed and
like I told Mr. Holland last night, it's easy to dismiss somebody
that is just a casual friend or somebody that you just barely know,
but when it comes to having to take this kind of action on somebody
you consider a friend and all for many years, it tears your heart out.
It does, but I do feel that Mr. Holland Went back on what we thought
Was an agreement last night, and it hurt me als0 that that happened,
because I thought it was going to be dispensed with in a way where
there would be the least hurt on anybody. YOu brought up, Mr. Mayor,
about the reasons. I think, according to the press, it was stated by
somebody, I don't know whether Mr. Holland did this morning, but
there was no reason to satisfy him or something to that effect.
Something like that. I thought that everybody was pretty well satis-
fied last night .as to each one~ reasons behind his action and think-
~ng, and those reasons~---~iive been bugged, toda'y.'wanting to kn.Ow
hat those reasons were. .But there aqai'n, thinking a..!ot of Mr;
ollind, and Wanting to 'do anything ?h~ Wasl 'possible to keei~ 'fr,6m
ur,lng' Mr. !la d 'and hurting his wife, "have- hesitated
%he wa~y 'through, b&t' i,¢an' See righ't ~noO~'and We al~
would like to take a trip this summer, .or something to.that effeet.
Mr~ Holland, I don't want to quote y~u Wrong, and I th:tn~k at one
point, you said that you .agreed that maybe you had reached .the point
%hat .we needed a pM0felssion-l ci'ty Ms'ager. I belier
~greed tO that at one p. Oin't last'night, if my'reco!iecti0~-~.s ri. ght.
I thought this was goi,g t~ be done and we would all part w~th0.u-t
this adverse stuff that was put out last night, but 'iC seems that ,now,
fir'om what I have had Put to me today,' c~at it'haS' got to ~e
public what the reasons were; It Seems' to me like they Want"i"t. I
don ' t know."
Mayor Avery; "This was my statement, and please understand tha~ it
is Without bias, that the public is going to be concerned and that is
'the reason I stated what.I 'did."
~. Croft: "Maybe it is just as well' to'give it to the press right
now, inasmuch. as it wasn, t 'Carried 'o'n in. the quiet 'way .tha~ we ~anted
· it done, hoped and-p~rayed t~at it Wquld be done., wi~hOu~ "embarrassment
to us and embarrassment to- Mr. Holland, his' ~i'£e, and his .friends."
~ayor Ayer¥=. '"'The poi,nt I"m making, plea~se und,erst~nd t~a~ th,.is.isn
a~y advice, On my Part, 'bUt' 'the publiC, land he ha~s 'mad~ a .point, is,
be asking you~ and i want to caution, you from the ~air, i th~nk-you
shOuld'be sDecific'in'yOu= 'own self-de'fenSe, Mr. iCroft. Th~s is .the
~onl~.th..!ng I..want you 'to do."
which ~t.' 'W~s tnte~d~,d~[, i!nas=Uch as. i~"waSn!~ handled as. ~diplo~at.ic
a'~ "in ~e"ri' ht Wa~ that we had' hoped arid' Pta '~ed '~at' it~ w.'o~d '~e '
iha~dl~d,' i"W~11 .~o~ st'ate'wlx&t I 'Said :last night as my r.ea.son..~O
easy. What I am referring'to is improper use, and~ I say that in my
opinion, improper use of tax funds, and I am right on that, I am sure,
and doing things without the knowledge of this Council, that I feel
this Council shou'ld have the knowledge of. on N. w. 4th Avenue,
between 12th Street and 13th Street, and on N. W. 13th Street and N.
W...12th Street, the thing that disturbed me .... there was a deed con-
veyed to the Citylfor some right~of-way, and evidentl~some agreement
to be paved in the County area, was not in 'the City, still isn't in
the City, and City tax funds were used for it .... some agreement, I
don't know what it is, and nobody but the Mayor, Mayor Avery and the
City Manage~.ae far as I know, knew anything about it.. ! know that·
four CounCilmen had no knowledge Of it whatever, The deeds---I saw
the deeds and the City had received deeds to the property and four
Councilmen were in the dark. Now, my·position is this: If that is
the kind of Councilman that I have got to be, where I am kept in the
dark of such activities as that, I will resign my Job because if it
is going to bea Mayor-Manager formof government, you don't need me~
as a Co~ncilman. That'-is all I've got to say."
Mayor Avery: "D~. you have any specific things that you want to' pre-
sent at this time, Mr. Jurney? Do you wish to ask questions?"
City Manager Holland:' "I believe Mr% Talbot made ..the statement to me
that Mr. Saunders Complained last night ............ "
· Mayor Avery: "Wait just a minute.' Let Mr. Saunders "
Mr. Jurney: " Mr. Saunders or mine, but we were here
at the City Hall on the same day that this one particular incident ~
came about, and that ia regarding paving and the participation re-
garding that. I believe it was on a 60-40 basis. Is that correct,
Jack? We checked at~thel..Cit~ Clerks office and found that this was
60-40 on materials only, and of course, I am not as old as these
other gentlemen"on the Council; however, I assumed that was 60-40 for
material and labor, and I believe it is the opinion of others that
this is a very irregular situation. I have one further statement to-.
make, that I think that inasmuch as the City of Delray Beach is growing
at'this rapid rate of population increase, that the City needs the
best guiding head that we can possibly get, which is a City Manager.
I~feel that we need a professionally trained City Manager to handle
our affairs. I think that just about covers it."
Mayor Avery: "Now, Mr.' Jurney ...... Mr. Saunders, what did you have
in mind?"
Mr. Talbot: "The only thing I know to do is to reiterate in 'detail
what I said last night, which was quite a lengthy speech, and I will
try to do it."
Mayor Avery: "Please proceed."
Mr. Talbot: "Bob, if I do not relate it exactly as you remember it,
please feel free to question me. I think I started out that I con-
sidered Bob a very good friend of mine and I hoped that he considered
me the same. I also, and perhaps should apologize when I said it, that
your position in your business experience has been exactly like mine.
That is that I have been my own boss. I have worked for myself all
.my life, I tried working for a large corporation. I couldn't take it
'and I resigned. You have been in business for yourself, your own boss
and you have been successful. In~ momparing the position that you hold
as City Manager, you are in a worse position than a person working
for a President and a Board of DirectOrs, and you not only have a
board of directors, you have got ten thousand people that are holler-
ing at this board ~f directors, and each one is an expert in their own
line. On the job that you have done on the outside with the
-4- 3-19-65
efficiencies that you have create~ outside this City Hall have been
the best that I hsve ever seen. I think I brought this point in, that
in my opinion, Bill Lawson,who I Served under as Councilman, also
Mayor, in my mind, was the finest City Manager that I have ever known
with the exception of his weakness on the outside mal!agement, of
which you were. far. superior to him. However, I do feel that inside
the City Hall, things are not, right. ..You are not Capable of handling
the details- that are put upon a city Manager inside %he City .Hall.
Pirst of all, admitte.dly, you don~t like the work inside the City Hall,
and getting down to the point' that in this being. , ~excuse me,
before I went 'on with that,I sai~ that in my opinion,that the
Recreation Department has 'deteriorated greatly'this past year, and it
has deteriorated to a point to where in my contact with people outsi~e
the City, it has been brought to my attention, and 'alSo' people inside
the City. You have had to lean on people inside the Cit~y Without full
knowledge of the operations, inside the City Hall, I mean, that in
opinion,are not competent. I feel the time'has come that the City
needs not only a professional City Manager, but a professional
Recreation manager, 'and for that r~ason,I feel that you should submit
your resignation. I also.ment£one~ that I was sorry, that the publi-
city had gotten out as it had. It was all done with a sincere effort
that it would not get out, and that you could turn in your resignation
on the basis that .... to h~ll with those guys, I don't need a job any-
way. I don~t have to work for them. In-other words, I said for
_.s~!f? tha.t, you ..~an incriminate me, or s.!ur'me in any way that, you ~ant
of wh t ! s zd. ;Is tha_~ rxght, ~ob? ~ ..........
Ci-~y Ma.ager HOlland: ' ~"That~ i~ correc~, v~rbat~im. - ' .... ' - .....
~ayo=_.Avery':; ,A~nythi~~' furthe, r? Mr'..Talbot,does that~
Mrs. Ta'ib06': i'i! WOuld like (o add' that.I regret,.. andb~eiiive ]iae
'i~hat i~ .I hadn'~' g°ne tO get' my _bloOd '.PreSsi~re.'¢heCked"bY'Dr.' iiabO=n,'
. sa~nflers: ' ;"May I in~ect that, and 'I aa:'seri0us,;~tha~i ;regret,.
n~d ~re is not a man. s'ittin~ 0n this .C~u~il ~h~.~ ~0~sn'.~' ha~e~ ghis
.~rri~lyi' .I' do personally. It tears me .up inside. '.'It is,~°
~"t~'I 'like ~e are trying to ~0 what 'is b~s~ and ~at ~is a~?~i~,~Can ~ay."
e-~air' ~o, give ~. Hoiia.d a Chan=~ t~ ~r~pi~.under 'th~iS;~' ,~ do you
:.~'. ~alsot::' ,~. aairman,-'one thing I Want to cheak ~. "W~
ia'St ~gh~--T -hi ca.' t' [hinlc~ St-taUght tonight, ja~We ,.di'~ .'~g=ee '~hat Bob
'am X~clear"on ~e'Rober~s RUles where un~r discussion,.' is it proper
t9 give ~. Holland a qh~nce to an~r, or whe~er-at a~ll,' or the
~stion to ~h'e' ~°tion now~ I wOul'd'"li~e '~ lit[is co~sel from some-
body the9 kno~s ~pre ~about Roberts Rulea~ than I: .do.on ~ia .,thing, be-
ca,se i WO~ld like~0 knOW.;~r pieasure. ~is tS 'all -i'"~a, tJ I want
want anything c0ntroversial 0r'a~gume~tat~~. --~ .......... the
Procedure was last ni~h~,"
Mayor Avery: "Say, i movethe question to the motion."
Mr. Jurney: "I mOve the question to the motion."
Mayor Avery directed the Clerk to call the ro11, and all voted "yes".
Mayor Avery: "This matter of business has been closed. The motion
is carried. Does any of the Councilmen now desire or not desire
whether Mr. Holland be given a chance to reply or do you think it is
improper9 I just want to know."
Mr. Croft: "I don't know ..... that we're through with it ..... "
Mr. Jurney: "I don't think that it is necessary."
Mayor Avery: "! am just trying to move and I don't want anyone to
say there has been anything improper. Is there any further business
to come before ~his meeting?"
Mr. Talbot: "Mr. Chairman, I think there is further business to come
before this meeting. I move you that the position---,---"
Mayor Avery: "Did we call the roll on this thing? How did I vote on
this?"'
Mayor Avery was informed that the roll had been called and that he. had
voted "yes".
Mayor Avery: "Please, I would like to retract this. With your per,
mission,= am in trying to define this thing. Will you
permit me to change my vote to 'no' because ! was not conecious of
that. Do I have your permission?"
Mr. Talbot: "Permission is approved-."
Mayor Avery: "You understand that ! am very tense, and I am very
conscientiously trying to do justice to a11, and if pOssible, without
showmanshipl Jim, you understand that, but ! am trying to be fair and
this thing was inadvertent. With yourpermission, I change that so it
is correct."
Mr. Jurney: "It's accepted."
Mayor AverY: "Now, to the next thing .... brother. Now, Mr. Talbot,
thank you for permitting me to interrupt you."
Mr. Talbot: ',HOw many, how many---qUeStion, Mr. Chairman. How many
positions is Mr. Woodard charged with now? Purchasing Agent~"
Mr. Jurney: "Civil Defenee."
Mayor Avery: "Purchasing .Agent, Civil Defense Director, Recreation
Director, and various co~mittee memberships."
Mr. Croft: "You want what positions he is being paid for, don't you?"
Mr. Talbot: "What he is being pa~id for, yea."
Mr. Croft: ~!I~don't think Civil Defense is in that."
Mayor Avery: "If I am not mistaken, and this is only for information
the Chair is putting out. I~hi~ that Mr. Woodard---the title of his.
3-19-65
position is Purchasing Agent only. Now am I correct in that?"
Mr. Jurney= "He gets a 9ortion of his salary from Recreation."
Mr. Croft: "His salary is divided some way, but I don't know how."
Mr. Talbot: "Mr. Holland,could tell us how his pay is divided up~
It is in several different ..... "
Mayor Avery: "Mr. Holland is no longer your City Manager."
SEVERAL' TALKING 'AT O~CE.
City Clerk Worthing: "I understand from what I read in the papers,
and I am not connected with the accounting department, that two thirds
is chargeable to the Purchasing Agent and one third to the Recreation
Department."
Mr. Jurney: "That's correct."
Mayor Avery: "Does that give you your answer, Mr. Talbot?"
Mr. Talbot: "What type of position in the Recreation Department?
In other words, gentlemen, putting it on the table, ! wish to abolish
the jobs that Mr. Woodard is doing.",
Mr. Jurney: "I think so, I think that would do it,_ wouldn't i~?"
Mr. Talbot: "I don't know what, ! don't know how to list the,jobs.."
Mr. Jurney: "Well, he is getting paid one third from :the Recreation
iand tW~.thirdS from ,the Purchasing, and i'%hink those ~wo 'j0bs:~re
What we are talking about~"
Mr. Worthing: "May I say, gentlemen, ~tha~ I think his 'pOsition with
the. city Of Delray Beach is Purchasing Agent. It so happens that he
~aS'heen assigned duties connected, with the Recreation Department
to a certain extent; therefore, Mr.. Holland, rightfully SO, determined
that that department should stand some'of'the expense and it notall
:be charged to the purchasing Department. But his positionwiththe
,C~tY is ~urchaSing Agent." · ·
Mr.,~alb0t: "Purchasing Agent. Before X make this motion, before I
~movw, ~and' i am sure that'Mr. Holland will agree with what I am going
to .:~?y.~,.~.l~st thin~ ~ want to do is hurt anybody, ~ther mentally
'or fxnancxally. I didn't P~now-the othe~day 'that---.Un'til the other
day that Woodyhad been married. Just married four days ago.~.It
isn't the pr~rogatlye Of this Council--Ai realize that what h~.does
with his ,private life or what/'ob!igati6ns
financially .... but at the ~ame time;in anything that I do ]am going
to be as human. ~{ !~an, ~on{id~ring,~the interests of, the city. With
tho~f~rWards, ] m~ve you that 'the=poSition of'Purchasing Agent be
abolished, as now being occupied by Mr. Woodard, im~n~edi~te!y,.aud that
Mr. Woodard be---I am assuming that he has so~e V~catiOn~oming2--two
weeks'.~acation pay, plu{ two month~ severance pay, and !Won_'~.vote
for any other motion if i get a second."
Mr. JumPy: "I second."
M{yo~Ave:Y: "Discussion. ~le~k,cali ~he ro117 ·
.... --- ~ .... 7- 3-19-65
Mayor Avery= "Any further business to come before this meeting?"
Mr. Croft: "I think you don't'have any City Manager, and you've got
to request somebody to ...... "
Mayor Avery: "That's true~ ...... without a City Manager, and you
should appoint somebody."
Mr. Croft: "As temporary or Acting City Manager."
Mayor Avery: "As temporary or Acting City Manager is appropriate
until such time as you appoint a permanent City Manager. What is
your pleasure?"
Mr. Croft: "I would move that Mr. Worthing be requested to serve as
temporary City Manager."
Mr. Saunders: "I would second that."
Mayor.Avery: "Gentlemen, you should talk at his present pay (Mr.
Croft: 'I don't, I---') ..... the only reason I say .... on your pay
box. You see, automaticall~ your pay man would say his duties were
in a pay box, so it is proper that you state, at his present pay or--"
Mr. Croft: "I think there has been some consideration in the past,
a time or two, but at the present time, I would say at the present
pay."
Mayor Avery: "Please understand, because right away you've got your
man, Mr. weber, who operates this pay thing and in his duties, if~he
were transferred into it automatically for the duties he is doing
here. You understand that. Further discussion? That is right. That
is a motion~ has it been se6onded?"
Mr. Saunders: "I seconded it."
MayOr Avery: "Discussion? Clerk,call the ro11."
Upon call of roll, all voted "yes".
Mayor Avery: "Mr. Saunders."
Mr. Saunders: "We should set in something in the mechanics now of
taking applications for City Manager. Getting out advertising---~"
Mayor Avery: "It is proper to direct the Acting City Manager to
start advertising (Mr. Croft: 'ProfessiOnal City Manager') for a
Professional City Manager in the pay rate of, and if possible, by such
a date, because you peg it down and that lets people know that you
want to get one and you don't have to ~onsider (noise on the tape)
.... put off a month or week or whatever you want to, but for his
advertising purposes, I think he needs to know the pay grade and the
expected date. Is that correct?"
Mr. Jurney: "That's correct."
Mr. Croft: "we can---we don't have to record t~at tonight. I mean
the pay and all that." ,.
Mayor Avery: "If you are going to let him advertise, he is---you
want to put the wheels in motion. You should tell him, advertise
for a professional City Manager' in the pay range of (Mr. Saunders:
'of $10,O0O.00 to $12,000.00') $10,00O.00 to $12,000.00, to be due
here not later than, and what is a reasoneble length of time to get
a reasonable number of applications, Mr. Worthing?"
-S- 3-19-65
Mr. Worthing= "Not less than 45 days."
Mayor Avery= "Sonow you have your information, you can make a
motion."
Mr. Talbot= "I have a question. Would it be on the safer side to
make it 60 days, or could you extend it if you wish?"
Mr. Worthing= "I believe it would be well to do that, sir."
Mr. Jurney: "Sixty days instead of 45?"
Mr. Worthing: "Yes, sir."
Mr. Talbot: "Would that meet with your approval?"
Mr. Jurney: "Sixty days from Monday, maybe."
Mr. Worthing: "From date of solicitation."
Mr. Jurney: "From date of solicitation, which would be Monday."
Mayor Avery: "Monday, that is when you work, is that correct, Mr.
Worthing?"
Mr. Saunders: ,I so moYe,. ~ you.know what the motion is.".
move. .,.that~.. ·the Acting_ ~ ~ ~City Manager, be in~tructe~ to,.adver~ise and
procure applications 'for the office of Cit~Manager',-the qualification
to be a professionallytrained man, the pay range te be $10,000.00 to
$12,~0b0'i00, bids to be received not later than sixty days from next
Monday."
Mr. Saunders: "That.would be applications."
Mayor Avery:..'~Did I say.bids? Applications~ thanks. You are pretty
'goo~ Un~"r stresS'no~'~tO'~ake'mo~e'mista~es than that. You need
clarific~tion, Mr. - ....... "
Mr. W0rthing: "I be!ieve so. It would be wel! if. th~s C9~ncil ex-
Pressed its desire now as to PO~Sible ~ears of experience. With
.... (several talking) .... and years of experience."
Mayor Avery: " ...... years of experience, and gentlemen, there was
'~t one t~me we had problems with 'the knowledge of locality of Florida,
or do you want that in, because sometimes you get people from areas
that don.{t understand this~area, and~he, wants clarification, so in
discussion' to t~'~io~ ~6~ yo~ include ~t ~r~6~s someone want
to dO i~. Do you wish to put in these qualifi~ations, how many years
'~'. Saunders= "If you don't, then you may get one right out of school."
ss we .come from .somewhere else you:k~ow.'"
Mayor Avery: "Mr. Worthing, do you have any recommendations for
guidance of these men?"
Mr. Worthing:"-- .not lees than five years of experience."
Mayor Avery: "Is that satisfactory to you gentlemen, to be included
by whoever made the motion?"
Mr. Saunders: (I think) "I made the motion.."
Mayor Avery: "Do you include that in your motion, and do you include
itin your second? Now then, do you wish to make any specif~cations
as to familiarity with this part of the State? Further discussion to
the motion. Clerk,call the ro11."
upon call of roll, all voted "yes".
Mayor Avery: "Is there any other business to come before the meeting?"
Mr. Talbot: "Would it be in order at the same time to start the
search for a Recreational Director?"
Mayor Avery: "This is a question. If you will permit me to ..... "
Mr. Saunders: "It would be my thinking, Mr. Talbot, that your new
Clty Manager should, who is going to be held responsible for the
running of this City, that he should be the man to select a
Recreational Director."
Mr. Talbot: "It would be gentlemanly done to advertise and have
these applications on hand ...... "
Mr. Saunders: "It might not hurt to advertise, and say that we
would give them 90 4aye or 120 days. If we say 90 days, that would be
givi~g"them a month after we've ...... "
Mayor Avery: "That's a good point, and certainly proper."
Mr. Talbot: "The more time you have on this Recreation Director,
the better it is going to be."
Mayor Avery: "So it will give your newCity Manager a chance to
select one rather immediately."
Mr. Jurney: "How about .... we don't have a Recreational Director now,
do we? What is Mr. ~ansen?"
Mr. Croft: "You call him---what's his title, Bob?"
Mr. Talbot: "What is Hansen's title?"
Mr. Croft: "He is in charge of the Community Center."
Mayor Avery: "Gentlemen, then a motion is in order, if you so choose,
that the Clerk be---that the Acting City Manager be directed to adver-
tise for the position of Recreational Director in the price range of,
and to be due ninety days from next Monday."
Mr. Croft: "Are we going to stipulate the price range for that too?"
Mayor Avery: "He has to have it or he can't get applications."
Mr. Croft: "Well, I don't know .... I don't know what kind of
arrangements you want to get into with that."
-10- 3-19-65
87
Mayor Avery: "Gentlemen, maybe it would be---before you make the
motion, that it would behoove you to do a little investigation ....
(several people talking at once) and maybe approve this at the next
meeting or two weeks from then, as you would have plenty of time to
do it,"
Mr. Talbot: "It's not that urgent."
Mayor Avery: "Now, I get no motion. Is there any further business?"
Mr. Croft: "Mr. Mayor, I think we ..... "
SEVERAL WERE TALKING, and Mayor Avery said: "You are out of order
until I finish'the business."
Mr. Holland: "I am out of order, but I want to tell you this. It's
going to be nasty."
Mr. Croft: "Mr. Mayor, I think that we have a lot of public works
going on and I certainly, we've certainly got to have somebody to
see about them, so I request of Mr.' Fleming to assume his old job,
in other words, on a temporary basis, to see that the Public Works---
he's familiar with what's going on around all over town more than
anyone else I know. I'think that we've got to have somebody. Some-
body's got to ......... "
~ih~o"admi~st~ation, and'y0'~'Act~g'C~'.~anager-,=this~ishiS
Mr. Croft: ,W~ll, I ..... w--" several talking.
MayorAvery: "~--,-w~.thyour grade. If you start ~our City
Mx. Croft: ~I"m sbrry,~bu~6~'g0%"int0 directives, and I- .... "
~'~ Talb~: "I~'sorr~' I S~ouid~'t ~V~n haV~ "m~6~i0~'d~'it'~'" '~-'
. Mayor Avery: ,T9 advertise fora Recreational Director is quite
b~t it w6Ul~ be improper to tell him how ~o do his job."
Mr.'Croft:
jUSt. ~ry£ng
'Manager tO.bangle'the
handled~"
Someone said: "He's the man."
Mayor AVery: "He's the Acting'CitY~'Manager'and things have to be
.purchased. It's his baby. That is automatic..~.It.sure!y.i~, Isn't
Mr. W~rthing: "~Th~t's correct, sir, .May.I h~V~.a word? Falling
back' on'the great ~mpor~nce' of 'this Recreational D~r~c~0~]' 'I' think
it migh'~]be'We!l.f~r~you gentleme~,~o..~nside~ R~ssib~-..adyertising
.'as you '~irst ~o,tehpl~d'.~0~ng :'~"feW~&men%~"a~6;-~a '~i~'~fully so,
l~awing the Salary:open. Ni~e. ty ~y~ an~ let ~ho.e~r is.th~~_.:City
, .. . --..:,. ~: ~ :. : .' .. .
88
Mr. Talbot= "I think that is an excellent suggestion."
Mayor Avery: "Then do I have a motion?"
Mr. Talbot: "I will so move."
Someone seconded the motion.
Mayor Avery: "It has been moved and seconded that the Acting City
Manager be authorized to advertise for a Recreation Director,
applications to be received ninety days from .... not later than ninety
days from Monday, salary ogen. It has been moved and seconded.
Discussion~ Clerk, call the roll.
Upon call of roll, all answered "yes".
Mayor Avery: "Now, gentlemen, you have a specific request and you
have a public meeting. Since'the press is here,it is a Public meeting.
You have a specific request from Mr. Holland to be heard."
Mr. Saunders: "Move it be granted."
Mr. Croft: "Yes, I'll second it."
Mayor Avery: "Question. Clerk, call the ro11."
Upon call of roll, all answered "yes".
Mayor Avery: "Mr. Holland, the .... ,i (noise and talking together on
the tape.)
Mr. Holland: "Gentlemen, all I have to say is that (noise on the
tape) if all of you still feel that you're doing ...... faith in this
Council, and I've felt that way for the same thing. As far as
embarrassing me and my wife, forget it. I hope to remain friehds,
and I am not a bit embarrassed. And as to jobs, I had three calls
today, which I don't prefer to divulge, if I need the work. I will
help you any way that I can. That last statementI can prove. You'd
be surprised, but nevertheless, let it stay where it is. You have
pleased me greatly by reiterating the statements you made last night.
That is all I wanted, but I had & hard way to go around to get it.
Now, you gentlemen can tell the people, by newspaper, why I was asked
to resign. I thank you from the bottom of my heart."
Mayor Avery: "Any other business to come before this meeting?"
Mr. Holland: "I would lake to know who wants the keys, and when.
Do you want me to get out in the morning, or when?"
Mayor Avery: "The Acting City manager is "
SEVERAL TALKING AT ONCE.
Mr. Talbot: "As a citizen, you have a right to walk into City Hall.'
Mayor Avery: "Now, just a minute, we are still in this special meet-
ing. Any further business to come before this meeting? Mr. Worthing,
you are directed to prepare the minutes of this meeting verbatim,
u~dited."
Mr. Worthing: "Yes, sir."
Mayor Avery: "Does anybody object to that? Then, by acclamation,
that is an order. Do I have a motion to adjourn?"
-12- 3-19-65
~. Jurney: "I so move."
~. Talbot: "I'11 second ~e motion."
Mayor Avery: "Clerk, call the roll,"
Won call of roll, all answered "yes".
The meeting adjourned at 10:35 P.M.
R. D. WORTHING City Clerk
APPRO~D:
MAYOR (
-13- 3-19-65
90
A meeting was held in the Conference room at the City Hall at
7~30 P.M., Friday, March 19th, 1965, at the request of Culligan Soft
Water Service of Delray Beach, concerning the comprehensive report
of Water Works Improvements of the City of Delray Beach prepared by
Russell & Axon Consulting Engineers.
Mayor Avery called the meeting to order and introduced Council-
men J. LeRoy Croft, James H. Jurney, Jack L. Saunders and George
Talbot, Jr.~ also City Manager R. J. Holland~ Mr. Frank Osteen, Vice
President of Russell & Axon in charge of Florida operatione~ Mr.
Daniel Neff of Russell a Axon~ City Engineer Mark Fleming~ City
Clerk R. D. Worthing~ Mr. Walter Hays, Water Engineer for Russell
& Axon; and members of the press.
Mr. J. M. Crawford of Culligan Soft water Service introduced
Mr. Wilbur K. Hess, Executive Secretary of the Water Conditioning
Association International and Mr. F. K. Lindsay of the same associ-
ation~ also Mr. George McCoy, owner of Culligan Soft W~ter Service
in Delrsy Beach, and Mr. R. D. McDougal, the Culligan dealer in
Miami.
Mr. Wilbur K. Hess made their presentation as follows: "My
name is Wilbur K. Hess and I am executive Secretary of the Water
Conditioning Association International which is a trade association
composed of some 800 water conditioning dealers throughout the
country with headquarters in Wheaton, Illinois.
My associate, Mr. F. K. Lindsay, and I are here at the request
of Mr. George McCoy and Mr. J. M. crawford who own and manage
Culligan Soft Water Service here in Delray Beach. Mr. Lindsay is
a Chemical Engineer and has spent all of his productive life in
the science of water treatment. Culligan Soft Water Service of
Delray Beach has been serving the soft water needs of the citizens
of Delray Beach for the past l? years. Culligan has a number of.
local competitive water softener dealers which make this a sub-
stantial industry in Delrey Beach. Our comments here are in behalf
of Culligan Soft water Service. We hope to provide facts and points
of view which you should have to enable you to make the best possible
decision on the water works improvements recommended by your engi-
neering firm.
Delray Beach is fortunate in having a plentiful supply of water
with a better natural quality than is generally found throughout the
country.
We commend the Honorable Mayor and City Councilmen in their
desire to furnish the people of Delray Beach with a 'clean, clear
glass of water'.
we have carefully reviewed Russell a Axon's Comprehensive
Report on ~ater V~rks Improvements for your city and believe their
recommendations, if adopted, will provide the clean clear water you
want.
we question, however, the economic justification of including
partial softening facilities in the overall project for the follow-
ing reasons.
1. We believe that the people in this city want a water
that is clear, pure and non-staining. The proposed removal
of $ to 6 grains of hardness would not contribute to the
desired result of providing a crystal clear, pure, non-
staining water, contrary to the thinking of some who may be
confused on this point.
2. Our best estimates are that from 25% to 30% of the homes
in Delray Beach already have home water softeners. These
home softeners completely remove all hardness minerals from
the water, thus providing a water of zero hardness. These
people who want completely softened water already have a
considerable investment in the equipment required to perform
this function. 3-19-6~
"3. Probably no more than 10% of all the water used in
Delray Beach is used for a purpose where the hardness or
softness of the water is a factor. This 10% estimate would
be substantially lower during the peak summer deman~ months
when proportionately greater quantities of water are used
for sprinkling and irrigation. In winter homes which are
closed during the summer, practically all the water used in
such homes is for sprinkling. Furthermore, the city itself
is the largest single user of water.
Completely softened water is beneficial for such uses
as bathing and personal grooming, laundering, dishwashing
and other household cleaning tasks. These uses account for
only a very small percentage of the total uses in Delray Beach.
If the proposal made in the report relative to softening
is carried out, the city ~ust 'partially' soften 100% of the
water, when only 10% or less of it will be used for a purpose
in which the hardness or softness is an important factor. We
submit that the cost of softening 100% of the w&ter~when no
more than 10% is beneficial is an unjustifie~ use of taxpayers
money.
The home softening industry softens on1¥ the water that
needs softening, and the normal home softener installation
will bypass the sprinkling systems and toilet flush tanks,
and soften only the water used for washing and cleaning. An
average of only 30 gallons per capita per day needs soften-
ing compared to a total average daily per capita consumption
of 216 gallons.
If, therefore, the water softening desired is left to
the individual home owner, a complete job of hardness re-
moval can be done here, and the entire expense will be car-
ried by those who want and are receiving the benefits of
this high quality water.
4. The proposed partial softening plant woul~ remove from
5 to 6 grains of hardness, leaving a residual hardness of
5 grains (85 ppm). Although this would improve the quality,
we question if many people would be aware of the improvement
if they were not told of it.
5. The residual hardness of 5 grains is still hard water.
T. E. Larson, Head, Chemistry Subdivision, Illinois State
Water Survey, and prominent leader and respected authority
in the American Water Works Association, writing in the June
1953 issue of the Journal American Water ~rks Association,
and referring to municipally softened water of 85 ppm, said,
'Such water is not completely soft and should never be so
characterized'
Also, Dr. Harvey ~ilke, Professor of Civil Engineering,
Purdue University, also a recognized authority in the field
of municipal water treatment, writing in Extension Circular
505, said= 'A person accustomed to 20 or 30 grain water may
regard 5 grain water as soft. On the other hand, one accus-
tomed to 1 or 2 grain water thinks that 5 grain water is hard.
Actually, neither would be correct, for water that contains
any hardness at all is 'hard', not 'soft'.
6. Most of those now using home softening and who have a
considerable investment in equipment would continue to home-
soften their water. But if the city were to partially soften
the water, those who do not now enjoy the benefits of soft
water would tend to believe that their city would be supplying
them with soft water even though the water would actually not
be soft, and this would seriously restrict the home softening
market in this city and unduly hurt local business interests.
7. We have read with interest the report made by Russell &
Axon, Consulting Engineers, entitle~ 'Engineer's Preliminary
Report, Water Works Improvements, City of Boynton Beach,
Florida--Oct. 1959'. It is our understanding that as a
-2- 3-19-65
"result of carrying out the improvements Droposed in this
report the City of Boynton Beach is producing 'clean, clear,
water~. ~ile reduction of hardness was considered by
Boynton Beach it was not include~ in the improvements made.
In fact, on page 15 of the Engineer's Report, the following
statement is ma~e= 'At the 9resent time, it is doubtful if
reduction in hardness can be economically justified.' An
examination of the analysis of the Boynton ~each and Delray
Beach water supplies indicate that the two supplies are very
similar chemically. The treatment required for one should
therefore be generally adequate for the other. It is quite
apparent that the citizens of B~ynton Beach are well pleased
with their present water and have a high regard for the engi-
neering master piece carried out by Russell & Axon.
It is our opinion that the funds estimated for carrying out the
proposed hardness reduction could be applied more advantageously if
used for such purposes as expanding the sanitary sewer system, or in-
creasing the availability of the city water through the extension of
the distribution system. This could be a wiser expenditure of tax-
payers money and would produce revenue which partial softening would
not.
We strongly recommend that the engineering recommendation deal-
ing with softening be eliminated, and that the money you save be
allocated for a more advantageous use.
In summary, we feel that the proposed softening facilities are
not economically justified because= (1) The people want a clear, pure,
non-staining water and softening is not needed to accomDlish this~
(2) 25% to 30% of the homes in Delray ~each already have invested in
home softening equipment~ (3) Only 10% of less of all the water'is
used for a purpose where softening is beneficial~ (4) The proposed
city softening would remove only 5 to ~ grains of hardness~ (5) .The
remaining 5 grains would still constitute a hard water~ (~) People
now having completely softened water would continue home softening
if the city were to do the job partially, but this would undoubtedly
seriously curtail the market for additional home softening business~
and (7) Your engineers recommendations for Boynton Beach, ~hich did
not include softening, appear applicable here.
We,therefore,suggest that you 'request your engineers to abandon
the softening program and the funds thus saved be re-allocated to a
more beneficial use."
Mayor Avery said there would be no Council decision on this item
tonight, but the Council wanted to know all the facts so that a proper
decision could be made at a later time.
Mr. Osteen referred to the Boynton Beach water plant, and sai~
it ha~ been designed so that if they ever have the money an~ want to
spend it for that purpose, they can provide softening facilities at a
later date. Mr. Osteen said that the softening of water is a matter
of economics, primarily, and the first and foremost requirement of any
water is that it satisfy public health requirements~ further, from the
standpoint of public health, the filtration plant is the most important
feature, and that Delray Beach is p~actically the only city in this
vicinity that has not gone to water filtration. He also said that
water softening would not make a difference in the appearance of the
water, and asked that Mr. Hays make a presentation of some facts and
figures on this item, also a cost estimate on that portion of the.
water treatment Dlant, the capital e~enditure, that would be neces-
sary to install the softening equipment, and the council would have to
deci~e whether or not they felt it worthwhile for the City of Delray
Beach.
Mr. Osteen reminded the Council that at the time they made the
report for Boynton Beach several years ago, the financing situation
in Boynton Beach was not the same as it is in Delray Beach, and all
of those things enter into an Engineer's recommendations.
-3- 3-19-65
Mr. Walter Hays of Russell & Axon explained why the Consulting
Engineers'recommend water softening as a part of the water treatment,
as follows= "First of all, as has been stated many times, the pri-
mary objective was to furnish a clean, clear, non-staining, iron free,
glass of water, and to do that dependably and absolutely involves
filtration of water. The expenditure in the capital investment that
would be required to add the softening feature to the water plant
amounts to, in our preliminary estimate, about $180,000.00 out of the
approximately $1,600,000.00 as set u9 in the report. In addition to
our preliminary estimate, this is backed up by statements of authori-
ties in the American waterworks Association Journal, that where
filtration is planned, the addition of softening usually adds only
about 15% to the cost of the plant. As far as the economy of the
softening is concerned, it is true that the percentage of water which
requires softening is not 100%of all the water produced, certainly,
because not all of the water goes for purposes where the hardness
makes any difference at all, for sprinkling and such uses. However,
if you are to soften water for the uses where soft water is desirable,
and I don't think there is any argument that the use of soft water is
economica11~ justified for the purpose of. washing or any purposes
where you have soap or cleaning agents involved. If you are to use
soft water for those purposes, the economy of softening is such that
municipal softening is by far the most economical means of accomplish-
ing this, in almost all cases.
Mr. Hess mentioned Dr. T. E. Larson of the State Water Survey
of Illinois. Dr. Larson had an article in the American Waterworks
Association Journal in February, 19620 comprising what he calls the
effective cost of water softening. He gives formulas, mathematical
formulas, for the effective cost of softening depending upon the per-
centage of water pumped or produced which is required for soft water
purposes, according to those formulas which we have worked out here.
The cost of softening, according to and based on figures that are in
our report, comes down to approximately .04 and 7/10 cents per
thousand gallons. This includes the capitalized cost of the portion
of the plant that is allocated to softening. This is also conserva-
tive, because it includes the entire cost of operating the new facili-
ties which certainly should not be all chargeable to softening, but
as a hurried take off, we have left that in just to be completely
conservative, and this results in this .04 and 7/10 cents' per thousand
gallons. Based on this, and using these formulas that Dr. Larson has
in the waterworks Journal, the effective cost which amounts to the
cost of operating the water plant to soften all the water allocated,
only to the number of gallons which require softening, of course, de-
pends on this ratio of the water that does require softening, and as
the first estimate I took about 75 gallons per capita per day which
would require softening. I will juggle that figure around in a few
minutes. Based on 75 gallons per capita Der day the effective cost
of softening water in Delray Beach would amount to .12 and 9/10 cents
per hundred parts per million removed, per thousand gallons. Based on
figures for operation of home softeners, using a figure of $2.75 per ~
100 pounds of salt and a first cost of the home softener installation
of $300.00 comes to about .32 and 4/10 cents per hundred parts per
million, per thousand gallons. The effective cost of service soften-
ing, based on a charge of $6.00 per month for this service, comes to
about .37 and 6/10 cents per hundred parts per million removed, per
thousand gallons. Based on these figures and juggling these around,
if we want to take Mr. Hess' figure of 30 gallons per capita per day
which requires softening, I would then arrive at 15%. Roughly, for
municipal softening I would arrive at an effective cost of about .34%
cents per thousand gallons toward the 115 parts per million that we
actually propose to remove. By comparison, the home owned softener
would do the same job for about .67% cents, and the service softening
would do the same job for about $1.09. These figures are based on the
formulas in the American Waterworks Association Journal. They a~e all
reasons that we have recommended adding softening to the water treat-
-4- 3-19-65
"merit plant which we haPe proposed in the report. It is true that
softening down to about 5 grains is not 100% soft water. This is more
or less of an arbitrary fig. ute that most cities take as a desirable
degree of softening for the municipal water supply. People who desire
softer water than this can still soften part of the water that they
wish to use for bathing or any other purpose. The fact that the City
water would be softer would make their own softening cheaper for them
than softening water as it is delivered to them now."
Mr. Osteen said that the water treatment program, as proposed,
including softening, is based on no increase in the present water
rates, as the rates are high enough that the people should expect
partially softened water. Mr. Osteen said he was more or less neutral
in this, but if this water program was reduced anywhere, the softening
is probably the first place to start; further, that he did not feel
the Council was in a position to make up their minds on that until
they hear from the Fiscal Agent.
Mr. Hess said that municipal softening of water usually affected
their industry for a long period of time, but their experience has
been, that given a sufficient amount of time the people learn that 5
grain water is not the water they had thought it would be. Mr. Hess
further pointed out that a home owner could completely soften his
water cheaper than he could subsequently soften it with city softened
water.
Mr. Fred Lindsay said they had made a survey and obtained com-
plete data from approximately 40 different municipalities, and quoted
figures for removing hundred parts per million, per thousand gallons.
Mr. Lindeay also explained how they had arrived at their figures of
cost of water softening per capita, partly softened by the city, and
completely softened by the user. Further, that it is difficult for a
person to tell the difference in softness of a 10 grain and 5 grain
water, but it is easily detected between a zero and a 5 grain water.
Mr. Hess informed the Council that the material Mr. Lindsay
quoted from has been reviewed by an Ed Hope committee between their
industry and the American Waterworks Association. Mr. Hess said that
the customers' cost would be greater for producing a zero soft water
if the City partially softens the water, than if the City did not
partially soften the water; further, that completely softened water is
not an easy thing to sell.
During discussion, Mayor Avery said the Council could get more
detailed figures concerning the softening of water if it was required
later.
During questions by Councilmen, Mr. Saunders asked what the
annual cost would be for softening the water after the installation
of equipment for that procedure.
Mr. Hayes replied: "I can answer that, Mr. Saunders, in this
manner. The chemicals for softening will cost about $24,000.09 per
year. The total electric bill for the new plant, the added cost for
power for the new plant, we have estimated at about $3,800.00 per year.
Certainly not all of that is chargeable to softening. We have an item
in here of about $6,000.00 per year for disposal of sludge. We have
an increase in salaries, due to the new treatment plant, of about
$21,000.00 per year. That certainly is not all chargeable to softening.
Less than half of it should be chargeable to softening because you have
a plant there and you certainly have to have personnel to run it,
whether you soften or not."
In breaking down the figures quoted by Mr. Hays, it was estimated
that the annual cost for softening water for Delray Beach would be
proximately $34,000.00, but Mr. Osteen said he figured it would be in
the neighborhood of $40,000.00 per year.
Mayor Avery thanked the different individuals for their reports
and information, and the meeting was adjourned.
-5- 3-19-65