06-25-63SpMtg JUNE 2%, 1963
A special meeting was held in the Council Chambers at 8:00
P.M., Tuesday, June 25th,.1963, with viCe.Mayor A1 C. Avery in th~
Chair, City Manager Robert J. Holland, C~ty.~AttOrney~ John Ross Adams,
and CounCilmen Emory J. B~rrow, George Talbot, Jr., and Oliver W.
Woodard, Jr., being present.
¥ice Mayor Avery called the meeting to order and announced
that same had been called for the pu~P0Se bf considering the Con-
sulting Engineers~ recommended Capital Improvement Prog~'am for Water
Department eXPenditure over the coming ten year period, and for any
other business which may come before the meeting.'
~n opening prayer was delivered by City Clerk Robert D.
Worthing?
Mr. Frank Osteen, Vice President, and Mr. J. F. Kapinos,
Chief Engineer of Russell & Axon, Consulting Engineers were introduced.
Mr. Kapinos informed the Council that since the report was
made more than a year ago there may be the need of changing some es-
timates in said report.
City ClerkWorthing read a memorandum from City Engineer .
Fleming to'City Manager Holland, dated February 6, 1963. Said memo
randum is attached to and made a part of the official copy of these
minutes.
Mr. Kapinos eXPlained that Russell & ~xon, in preparing their
table, used and followed the same setup that is used in the City
audit concerning expenditures and capital improvements., but that
their figures do not include all the minor expenses made'from day to
day by the Water Department. Mr. KapinOs further explained that
all the items, including some that the City Engineer questioned, were
in their report.
Mr. Talbot asked: "Mr. Kap.inos, in your opinion, on this
memorandum that Mr. Fleming has given us, are we proceeding fast
enough with those phases to maintain an adequate Wate~ suPply for
the City? In studying your report I see no recommendation as to the
time element for the capital iz~0rovements or for all of these im-
provements that you have suggested." Mr. Kapinos said that they had
not set U~ a time element, but if the city should grow very fast or
have a very dry season, it may be necessary to drill the second well
most any time, or it may be necessary to cover this whole program in
five years instead of ten years.
It was reported that one well had been constructed-and the
second well was set uP in the budget for the coming year.
Mr. Woodard asked Mr. KapinoS if the City's next ten years~
need was determined b~ the history of the p~st' ~en years.
Mr. Kapinos said, in their-report was a forecast of water'
connections and a forecast Of plant output, but basicallY they start-
ed with a forecast of population.
Concernin~ a proposed elevated water tank at the southern"end
of the beach and a proposed additional water line across the Intra-
coastal Waterway, Mr, Kapinos said that during a twenty-four hour
period there could be plenty of water furnished to that part of town,
but you could not meet the peak demands and at times the pressure
would be rather low, further, that as use increases it will continue
to get worse.
City Engineer Fleming and Mr. Kapinos discussed the extension
of their figures on Capital Improvementand other expenditures and
Mr. Fleming reported to the Council that in 19~0 the Capital expendi-
tures for the Water Department were $58,18~.00, in 1961, $56,900.00,
in 1962, $62,300.00 and in 1963, $67,400.00.
Mr. Kapinos informed the Council that any capital improvement
item that is listed in the ~eport, and is budgeted and paid for that
way, would come out of the $55,000.00 a year proposed in the report,
6-25-63
that the figure of $55,000.00 would be necessary Just to do the things
that are in the report.
M~. Woodard asked if there had been any needs anticipated in
the Russell & Axon Report that the city has-not anticipated, and
whether or not ~the.cityls charges a~e adequate to meet the antici-
pated needs. It was reported that i'~ the water rates were adjusted
as suggested, it would result in a ~% increase in total revenue.
Vice Mayor Avery said that the three things he is concerned
with in planning for the future are, the adequacy of supply, the
quality of the product, and the cost to the ~consumer, further, that
the decisions and actions of the Council today should assure these
three things.
Mr. Avery said that there h~ been cormplaints about the
quality of the water and asked if t~re had been any thought given to
the improvement of same.
Mr. Kapinos said that each of the two individual water plants
are not .balanced throughout to put the maximum flow of water through
them, that there is a bottleneck someplace and that one of the main
parts, as far as treating, is additional aeration.
Mr. Kapinos said that to ~ear up the cause of the discolor-
ation of water that has been compi~ed about, a filtration plant
should be built, and that type of ~$er t~reatment was not gone into
in their report.
Mr. 0steer informed the Council that it was their opinion
that the present City water facilities would serve for another ten
years, and beyond that ten year period filtration would probably be
considered, further, that the yellow water may be caused by iron,
and that some of their recommendatiGns, snch as the for6ed draft
aerator, may tend to eliminate som~.~f the yello~ water.
Mr. 0steer, fUrther, stated that i~their~t ten year projected program
was Carried ou't there would be plenty Of water, and good water for
Delray Beach, and then a filtra~tion plant could be considered.
Mr.. Talbot asked ~if this water program could be accelerated
~In order to give the citizens a higher grade of water, to which~ Mr.
Kapinos said the program ·could. he s~epped up as faust as money Was
available.. Finance Director ~eber~t~ted that if ~15,000~00 wes
needed. ~r a forced draft aerator ~e ·mOney is available at the pre-
sent time.
During general .discUssion, ~r. ~0steen co~maented ss follows:
"I am not technically familiar with 'the p~rticular type system that
you have, ~which does not call for filters, but remember this, all Of
these other systems do have filtration. I don~t want to mislead you
and tell you that you posit£vely will not need or will not want fil-
tration within the next ten years. This can happen. Your quality
of raw water could deteriorate. Yo~could start picking-up color
which you are not going to get out, iif it is any appreciable amount,
by this process and you would havei~0 ~o to filtration, but we are
making the assumption that your r~ water quality is going to re-
main substantially unchanged, this being true for~the next nine years,
if you carry out these improvements. Tf you accelerate them so that
~ou do them within the next two or three years, so much the better.
You are that much better off. Perhaps you should, from looking at
your increase in revenues and customers, which i~ beYOnd those which
we predicted in this report,--much~beyond. ~ imagine you are going
to reach this ten year program in a~out five years, But, to E~t back
to the central point, we think you'~.~ould~ · consider this ten year,, pro-
gram and then we will look beyond ~at when this is completed.
Mr. Talbot sai~ that 'what he would ~like for ~the O~Uncil
consider is to accelerate this whole program to a five. year program
and bring in the quality Capital impro~vement ~rogram as early'~as
possible, and that there are sufficient fun~s to accomplish same.
Following further discussion, M~. Talbot moVed ~hat the City
Manager be instructed to proceed w~h~putting into-operation the
water program as recommended by ~.~Fleming~ City Enginee~, which
follows along the report as offeredl~ by Russell & Axon unde~ date of
( 2 ) 6-25-63
209
April 23, 1962, accelerating the program into a fi~e year program
rather than a ten year program and accelerating that pa~t of the
program that increases the quality of the water.
Vice Mayor Avery explained the motion as follows: "You want
to move that the program as presented in Russell & Axon ~s Report be
accelerated to a five year, instead of a ten year program, with a
portion of the capital improvements.pertaining to the quality of'
water, be done as soon as possible.
P~. Woodard asked Finance Director Weber if the revenues and
assets were sufficient for this to be accomplished. Finance Director
Weber informed the Council that as soon aa the bond funds are in and
the Water Operating Fund reimbursed for advances madg~ there would
be unrestricted cash in the Water Fund in excess of $400,000,00~
The motion to accelerate the Water Program was seconded by
Mr. Woodard.
During discussion, M~. 0steen stated that when filtration is
consideyed there must be the consideration of a multI-millio~ do,tar
program, as filtration i~ a major expansion of the water t~eatment
facilities. Further, that the D~lray'Beach water system was not
designed to add filters economically' at this early data, but that the
installation of the forced draft aerator and relocation of lime
feeders would maintain the quality of the finished*'wate~. M~. Avery
said that with the present system the water is aerated and then there
is a settlement period of six hours, that there is a c~rtain"size
settlement basin that holds a certain number of gallons of water. Mr.
Avery then asked if the water was b~ng allowed six hours to settle.
Mr. Osteen commented: It is the opinion of the Engineers
that the time b~tween the addition of lime and the addition of sodium
hexa-metaphosphate is too short to allow sufficient contact time for
the desired chemical reaction between the'lime and the corrosive ele-
ments in the water. The addition of sodium hexa-metaphosphate stops
all chemical reaction and fixes or locks the chemical status of the
water. The results are that unused lime and some corrosive elements
in the water are carried into the distribution system, hence, the mud
situation that you are talking about. This problemcan probably be
eliminated by feeding the sodium hexa-metaphosphate as the water
leaves the 5/10 million gallon'reservoir at the south plant. Existing
facilities are capable of operating in this manne~ with no altera-
tions."
Mr. ~very asked Water Superintendent Paul Nicolls if all of
the water settled for six hours before it went into the distribution
lines, to which Mr.'Nicolls replied tha~ it did not.
Concerning the motion to acbelerate the Water Program, upon
call of roll, the motion carried unanimously.
Vice Mayor Avery said he thought there should be some engi-
neering study of increasing the quality of water with more settle-
ment, and also asked'what action the'Council could t~k~ t~ increase
the quality of the water within the amount of money available.
Mr. Ka~inos said the Water could be improved tremendously by
minor changes at the water plant, but that thisconditi~n will con-
tinue to get worse becaus~ the demands will be greatar and settling
time will be less. ~. Kapinos questioned the advisability'of in~
stalling additional settling tank facilities. Mr. 0steen said that
in their recommendations they tried to hold the plant improvements
to what they considered a minimum for this type plant, as undoubtedly
the day would come when a filter plant would be installed, which
would require a revamping of the complete water treatment facilities.
That in the meantime, the city should get full use of the existing
facilities, and if their recommendations are followed the problem
would be reduced.as far as iron is concerned. Further, that .if
Delray Beach continues to grow or water use is increased, Delray
Beach will undoubtedly build a filter plant.
Mr. 0steen mentioned the following recommendation which is
a part "
of their Water Analysis Report. Since the North -Plant now
(3) 6-25-63
adds sodium hexa-metaphosph~te as the water leaves the plant, the
only alternative is to feed the lime into the water earlier. Removal
and reinstallation of the lime feed point and chemical mixer will
accomplish the desired results. No new equipment will be required
and no alterations to the lime feeder will be necessary."
City Engineer Fl~ming said that the present water plant was
designed for an additional two' million gallon storage facility if
additional settlement of the~w~ter is desired.
Mr. Kapinos asked if there was enough well capacity' at peak
use to keep the pres~n% reservoir full,, and was informed that there
was not sufficient capacity which was the reason for installing the
two new wells.
Mr. Xapinos said the reservoir should be full at all times
to give the proper results.
Concerning the water rate schedule, City Clerk Worthing said,
for the benefit of the Press and Public that there was an item ap-
pearing in a recent issue of a newsp?per of wide circulation in this
area that a drastic increase of 125% over the rates charged for water
service inside the City would result in rates to be charged to con-
sumers outside the 'City limits, iF the proposed rate increase was
approved. The City Clerk, further, stated that such statement was
comDletely in error, for the rate to be charged for service outside
the City limits is now, has been, and proposed to continue to be,
25% above the rate charged to inside the City users.
Concerning'Council request that the City Manager contact all
cities from West Palm Beach to Key West relative to their policy con-
cerning water service outside city limits, City Clerk Worthing made
the following report.
WATER. R~TE SCHEDULES
(Outside Corporate Limits)
WEST PALM BEACH NO SERVICE Furnished.
LANE WORTH NO SERVICE Furnished.
BOYNTON BE6CH NO SERVICE Furnished - Except
Ocean Ridge, Brin~ BreeEes, Del
Boy Trailer Park and Place in the
Sun S/D
BOCA RATON NO SERVICE Furnished.
DEERFIELD BEACH NO SERVICE Furnished.
POMPANO BEACH Min. Chg. of $2.25 for the 1st
3,000 Gals., then .32~ per each
1,000 gals. thereafter.
FORT LAUDERD~LE Min. Chg. of $3.75 for the 1st
5,000 Gals., then .45~ per each
1,000 gals. thereafter to
1,000,000 gals. per month.
DANIA 125% of'~Ins~de the City Rates~
HOLLYWOOD NO SERVICE Furnished.
CORAL GABLES Min. Ch~. of $1.80 for the 1st
3~740 Gals., .3%~ per each 748
gal~. for ~he next I8,700 gals.,
' .30~per ~ach'7~8 g~ls. for the
~ext 67,320 gals., and .26~ per
each 748 ~als. for the next
13~,640 gals.
The City Clerk then presented the following memorandum from
City Manager Holland to the Council.
6-25-63
,211
"~E: .......... P~POSED ~ R~T~
With reference to tWater Rats Schedulet and Section V
of the t~nalysist, and believing the City's present
rate schedule to be withou~ foundation, it is my rec.
ommendatlon that the followinEP~ATE SCHEDULE, for
Water Consumption within the city boundaries, es rec~
~mended by Russell & ~xon, be approved by Council and
aUthorized for adoption:
G~LLONS IN ~/~" METER 1" METER l-l/2" METER 2" METER ~r
THOUS~ NDS _ ~
0 5 Min. ,~ .00 Min. $3.75 Min. $6.00 Min. $7.00
5 10 .25 .25 Min. 6.00 Min. 7,00
~11 above 10 .25 .25 .25 ,25
Rates for service OUTSIDE the city limits to be 125% of the above
schedule of rates.
Should Council determine to sustain this recommendation, the City
%ttorney should be directed to prepare an Ordinance phoviding for
amendment to Section 27-3 of the City's Code of Ordinances to re-
flect my recommended ~Rate Scheduler.
Mr. Kapinos explained that Delray Beach now has a multitude
of rates under each size of meter, and in the various brackets the
cost is from 9~ to 25~'within the city limits, further, that the cost
of operating the system, at the time the analysis was made, Was
approximately 25~Per thousand gallons, exclusive of depreciation.
~ollowing lengthy discussion, Mr. Talbot moved for the a-
doption of the rate schedule as recormnended by the Consulting Engi-
neers which appears in detail in the report submitted to Couhcil,
further, that the Gity ~ttorney and City ~dministration prepare the
necessary legislation to effect this rateadJustment. The motion
was seconded by Mr. Barrow and carried unanimously.
Vice Mayor ~very said tha~ the Council, at their regular
meeting, on June P~th,-voted to have Russell & ~xon submit an adden-
dum to the~ Sewer Contract. city ~ttbrney Adams informed the Co~tncil
that said addendum to the contract was submitted tonight and that-
ther~ have been a few minor changes. City ~ttorney ~dams then read
the addendum with the recommended changes, as follows:
SUPPLEMENTAL ~GREE~NT No. 3. To The Engineering Contract.
CITY OF DELRAY BEn. CH, FLORID^
WHERE~S, the City of Delray Beach, Florida hereinafter re-
ferred to as the OWNER, and RusseYl & %xon Consulting Engineers,
hereinafter referred to as the ENGINEERS, entered into a Contract for
Engineering services, dated the 30th day of September, 1959, on a
Sewage Works Facilities Project, and
WEERE~S, said OWNER and said ENGINEER entered into an agree-
ment for engineering services for Water Works Facilities on the 23rd
day of %pril, 1962, which has been performed, and
W~ERF~S, through the issuance of Water and Sewer Revenue
Certificates, said utilities should be continuously studied together.
NOW, THEREFORE it is Agreed that said OWNER does hereby em-
ploy the ENGINEER to perform all consulting engineering services on
said Water and Sewage Works Facilities. ~11 fees will be in accord-
ance-with the "Schedule of Basic Mlnimum Engineering Fees*' recom-
mended by the Fio~ida'En~ineering Society's la,est publication, which
is by reference made a part of this supplemental agreement.
It is agreed'that Engineering Servics~ will b~ performed in
accordance with the aforementioned fee~ upon~Uthorization from the
OWNER and in such event the ENGINEERS a~ree that the Sewer Construc-
tion Program under contract to date, shall be added to any subse-
quent Water Project in arriving at the net percentage fees.
(5) 6- %-63
212
The OWNER reserves the right to negotiate a lump sum fee on
any work 'authorized hereunder. ·
The terms and provisions of .the aforementioned Contracts
between the parties, inSupplemental Agreements dated prior to the
date of this supplement will remain ~n full force ~nd effect, except
where changed by this Supplemental Agreement.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF the parties have executed this Supple-
mental Agreement No. 3, at Delray Beach, Florida this day
of June, 1963.
--~ '' CITY OF DELRAY BEACH' - '
RUSSELL ~7X0~ bONSUL~N~ EN~iI~E-ERS'
City Attorney ~dams.inform~d the~CounciI that the only
changes he made in said supplemental agreement as submitted Were'to
specify that this covered only the consulting engineering phase and
also bo spell out that-the Sewer Construction Program under present
contract would~be added in arriving at the net percentage fees in the
future, and also reserving .the right to negotiate.for a lump sum fee.
~-~. Osteen informed the Council that w~$ the intent of the
Contract, but that City Attorney Adams felt that-it should be spelled
out in detail. M~. Woodard m~ved~that the Contract_b~ executed, the
motion being seconded by Mr; Talbot and.unanimously carried.
City Engineer Fleming asked, that since RusSell & Axon have
been given a continuing contract, would it be possible to give them
an order to proceed with the engineering'study on the construction
of additionalWell with Dual Drive and Header for the North Water
Plant, te~relocate the lime feed and mixer for the North Plant, and
the construction of a forced draft aerator for the North Plant, in
order to be~ready for the letting of Contracts, either by the first
of OctOber or shortly thereafter.
City ~ttorneY Adams reminded the Council that at the present
time this contract has not been'executed by Russell & Axon. '
Following discussion, M~'. Wooda~d moved that the City Manager
request the Engineers to submit, a propbsal to CounCil for the items
as specified by the City Engineer, on A lump sum basis, subject to the
signing of'the Contract. The motion was seconded by Mr. Barrow and
carried unanimously.
Mr. Osteen informed the Council that Mr. Livingston, a re-
presentative of one of the Contractors of the Sewer-Project is pre-
sent on account of a problem. Theproblem being thab trains running
seventy miles per hour are Causing trouble with installation-of
sewer line ~hey are laying adjacent to the railroad, and creates a
very dangerous working condition.
Vice Mayor Avery asked what would be considered a safe speed,
to which Mr. Livingston replied that if the trains were slowed' down
to twenty or twenty-five miles per hour it would giMe them an ade-
quate margin of safety.
Vice Mayor Avery asked the City Attorney what action the City
could take to insure or enforce the fact that the t~ains would go a
maximumefl twenty-five miles per hour for the duration of installation
in that particular location.
City .Attorney Adams commente~ as follows: "I think the action
might be to authorize the City Manager to send the appropriate author-
itiesa telegram tomorrow warning them that they ar~.creating a
dangerous condition and that the City would appreciate it and demand
that they ~alow their trains down for a period of ten days to a speed
of twenty-fi~e miles per hour."
It was so moved by Mr. Woodard, seconded by Mr. Talbot and
unanimously carried.
(6) 6-25-63
Vice Mayor Avery asked if' the Inspectors on the Sewer Pro-
Ject could be identified in some manner in order that the citizens
may know who they are. The Chief Inspector informed the Vice Mayor
that within a week the Inspectors would be wearing gold colored hats
with "R & A" in blue on both the front and back of the hats.
The meeting adjourned at 9:40 P. M. on order by Vice-Mayor
Avery.
R. D. WorthinE
City Clerk
APPROVED:
(7) 6-25-63
215
~here was a meeting of the Council, Planning Board, Ooun~
Engineer, George Frost, and City peuso~el as follows; Vice ~You
Andrew ~abe~s, Ke~eth Jacobson~'~Dick Jebb, James 8i~s, 'and Stuart
~nkton. Building Official ~lph A. Hudson, City Clerk R. D~
Worthing, 0ity Atto~ey, Jo~ Ross Ad~, Cowry ~gineer
Frost and County Oo~ssiener George Warren were also present.
~. Avery~ "I understand f~ the ~ilding Inspector that
~orthing has the ~nutes up to the point ~en this thing was tabled
and the ~action taken. ~at would include the G~css survey and ~11,
wouldn't it, ~. ~orthing?"
~. Wc~thin~: "~here has been a considerable n~ber of meeti~s
conc erning this."
~. Avery~ "~ill you bring us up to date with that i~or~tion
you have, and then we can start from there."
~. Worthing: "Of c~se, it sta~ed back in April, 1956."
~. Ave~= "Bring it all the way."
~. ~albot: "How voluminous is it."
~. Wor~hl~ "Ve~, very ~ch so."
~. Ave~: "We Should be brou~$ up to dat~ on what has gone on
before. N~, h~ c~ we do it quickly without taking a ~llion years
on the thing. ~t~s ~at I ~ asking him to do."
~. ~orthi~: "I personally didn't attend all meetings. I
not f~iliar with it. I do not ~nd readi~ all of these minutes,
that will take s~e t~e, however. ~ere are v~ious meetings start-
lng in April, 1956."
~. Avery~ "~e don~t want to listen to all the bloo~n~ minuses,
but we w~ld like to ~ow the work that's gone on before, ~. Worth-
~ it possible to get it without ~king a federal case out of
~. Wooda~d~ "~. Chairman, I wonder ~ one of the Pla~ing
Board members is conversant enou~ with this' ~hat they can give us
a twenty-five cent tour and bring us up to date in a h~y. Dick
and Col., any of you fellows?"
~. ~o~thing: "I mi~t say that ~. Hudson ls ~e~ f~liar
with what has gone. on before." '
~. Avery~ "Well'I ~ow for'a fact,' that the City Oo~ssion
ordered G~oss & Associates. We' had some action, and orders8 Gross
to give us a ~vey on a bul~ead line. Action ~as been taken by the
City in the past. How can we be brought ~ to date on it.
Hudson, can you do it~"
~. Hu~son~ "~ere has been a let of meetings when the bulk-
head line first came ~, as to who had control of it. ~e Co--il,
and I believe i~ was' im -- somewhere along ~ 1957 or 19%8 ~ey
ordered a survey ~de b7 Elliott G~Oss ~ Associates and they made
that s~vey and were paid for it ann ~ey aeveloped a proposed bulk-
head line. At one of the last Oo~eil meetings after this had been
given to that particular O~cil, it was' tabled for f~ther study and
tha~ has been the extent of it. Reoently~ we have had applications
for bul~eads to be built. ~e first one that was built after
e~troversial issue as w~ere to build bul~eads, a pe~t ~s asked fo
for. Xt was taken to, I believe the Plying ~oa~8 has discussion
with it, ~a t~e C~ncil gave, and ~ was the Ki~ey ~ouae,
me the au~ity to issue a bul~eaa ~rmit fc~ their bul~ead,
6
at that time was twenty-six feet inside of.this proposed bulkhead
line, or high water mark. Itve had a few requests for building per-
mits for seawalls and bulkheads, and 'the last one was the Wecker
property, which we let them build it on the-same diagonal line that
the previous bulkheads were, so that it wouldntt Jut out even to the
proposed bulkhead line. We do not have .any bulkhead line or any
dimensions where people,~ when they want to, can build a bulkhead or
groin or whatever is necessary. It seemed at the time the Seagate
built their pool, I believe M~. Middleton, the City and the County
Commissioners I believe, refused them the request to build their sea-
wall or bulkhead out where they wanted to, so they redesigned their
pool and put.it on piling so if the beach~washed out in front,'of
the pool would remain, which is what happened. Now I understand that
they intend to build something to protect them a little more so. It
was referred to the Planning Board some time ago by the Council to
get with the County Engineer and see if some solution or some control,
or whose control it was, could be worked out."
Mr. Avery: "Mr. Jacobson, did you have something you wanted to
add?"
Mr. Jacobson: "Very, very shortly. I understand that Mr. Frost
has a limited time here. I think he was here when we met with the
Commission a~d Planning Board and Mr. Middleton. The County wanted
to establish bulkhead lines all along the coast and they wanted the
cities to Co-operate with them and the Gross survey was a result of
that, but that was never official. The County backed away and I
didntt follow it through."
Mr. ~very: "t think our next point is to get right into it.
would-like to know, and Itm sure, for the benefit of the public, the
press~would like to know ~what, where and why are bulkheads~, what
it is, where it would be and why or why not. Could you take it from
there?"
Mr. Frost: '"Yes sir, Mr~ Ave~y~ Thank you .very much. I would
like to go back a little bit and talk. Of course, all of you know
about the bad effect cF beach erosion and every thing"els~.. I w~uld
like to review, if I can fo~ you in a few minutes, what happens along
the shore line and why we have the problem we do. A lot bf studies
have been made by the Corps of Engineers and bthers who have been
saddled With'this problem. There is approximately 230,000 cubic
yards of sand a year that moves along, say the Delrsy Shore Line.
This 230,00 yards moves southward, and it moves landward of the minus
twenty-seven foo~ contour. These~are estimates, of course. They
don't have any' measuring devices but they can tell f~om accumulation
and depletion off'stockpiles and such as that, what happens, Of this
230,000 Cu~i~ yards of sand a year that moves along the beach, ap-
proximately fifty percent of it moves landward again from another
contour, a minus eighteen foot contour. This~is eighteen foot of
water depth. These studies have been made and we feel that this sand
does move. Getting back to the part that the County plays in this,
from the legal standpoint the Board of County Commissioners were de-
signated by the State Legislature. ~ith another hassle of the Beach
Erosion Board, if you will, in 19~? the Legislature said, among other
things, that ~he Board of County Commissioners, in the unincorporated
sections of the Atlantic CoaStline would approve or disapprove struc-
tures built on the.ocean front. In addition tb that, within the
corporate limits of the municipalities, the Board of County Commis-
sioners and the City Commission or the elected officials of th~ City'
would JOintly govern construction on the ocean front. This means
that one has.veto power ov?r the other'. ~ Both have'~to issue a permit
for constr~ction on the ocean front. Under the Beach..Erosion"Act,
thiswaa intended to See that one~.person w~o lived oH the oceanfront
andWished to~.~re~'t structures that .migh~t ~a~versely.affect his~'nei.gh-
borlwouldnot be able to do'so without the authority of the gov~rnmng
bodiea.~-Eith~r the MUnicipality a~d the County in the ~ase of an un-
incorporated area, or theCoun~y Commissioners. The Board of County
Commissioners. dees"do_thiS. ~They do,his wit~ all the muni6ipalities
in the~O6~ty. They issue permXts or dent"Permits~. ~Thebasis of
issue or~'denial is put in th? hands of the technical peBple of the
coUnt~ which~iis t~e County Engineers 6~fice. AS Col. Fabenswill
(2) 6-25-63
.217
tell ]~u, w.e had a series of discussions'with him starting in,about
1956 or' 1957 oV 1958 at the Gulfstream Bath ~nd Tennis 01ub:' Mrs.
Biggs, a little further up, will tell ~ou that we had th~ se.me pq-
licy with her.' In the light of tho':Seagate problem, in abo~t 1~57,
Mr. Midd!eton 'and I hame 'do~m here and met with the City CommiSsion
at that time. Mr. Lawson was then the" City Manager and tb disagree
Just a little bit with my friend-Mr. Jacobsen, the City, as I recall
it, suggested that the administrative problems of the City would be
easier if they set a bulkhead line so that there would be no question
about where a bulkhead would go. There would be no guess work on the
part of the individual property owner concerning where this line
would be, .and as far as I know this is a unique approach to the ocean
front problem because I lmow of no ocean front bulkhead line that has
been established by any municipality along the coastline. This is a
unique approach to it and I think it is unique probably beca.Use the
places where you normally see a bulkhead line you have a static shore
line. Bulkhead lines are usually established along the Inland Water-
ways where the coastline is static and it can be expected to' remain
reasonabXy so. Along the Atlantic Coastline, as everyone tmows, the
high water line moves in and out, so it is not as easy a problem on
the o~ean front as it would be elsewhere. I will say this tc you,
that a bulkhead line would certainly help you administratively, but
it would add to your technical work in that you would have to eon-
stantly keep it up dated, because a bulkhead line that you established
this year wouldn't necessarily be fair two years from ncw,~ because
the shore line would either improve and move Seaward or deplete and
go shoreward, so it wouldn't necessarily be fair year after year.
You wo~ld have to keep the thing up dated. It could, hot be done at
that particular time. Mr. L~wson and Mr. Middleton walked'the com-
plete shorelin~ of Delray Beach from one end to' the other and estab-
lished cr'iterla on which Elliott Gross & Associates'then put the
line on paper. They more or less established the tl~es for him. He
did the survey work that ties Xt in, if I~m not ~mistaken~' with A IN.
The line w~s put on paper but as far as- I Enow, as Ken says, it was
dropped than. 'I don,t lmow why, or what has beeh done sinc~ with it.
I could go on abo~t beach erosion. I :mow that all of you are fami-
liar with it. That is briefly the County,s lobation in ~he picture.
AS far as the actual issuance of permits and approvaI or~'dis-
approval of them, we~have to' take each one on an individual basis.
We have to take it and look at it, at the time the~permit is re-'
quested, because the shore line moves in and out, and what was fair
in 1957 is not necessarily fair today~ We try to establish a line
on the beach which we think is fair 'both to the property owner con-
cerned and to his neighbor.' We have to consider the effect on his
neighbors, especially to the ~south of him, in the case of.~groins, and
on both sides as far as bulkheads, especially bulkhead returns where
the wave action -- the force of it is concentrated on his neighbor.
We visit each one of these at the time the permit is requested, and
we either approve or disapprove them in the case of the uhincorpo-
rated areas. Where they lie in ci~ies, as we did in Delray Be~ch on
the Seagate problem, go to the City Commission and tr? to ex~lain
to them our reasons for disliking the cOnstructiOns requested~ We
have never'had any difficulties inside a municipality as the problem
is theirs as much as ou~s."
· Mr. k~oodard.· "George, If I might ask a question. Hypotheti~
cally, if a line such as we a~e descrXbing Here were created~' or if
it $~ere to be revised from year to year, what would be the basis for
establishing such s lime?"
Mr'.' Frost: "The basis fo~ establishing it would be on two
criteria. 'The existing high ~ater-line and the existin~ constr~ction
on t~he ocean front'~ Just as an example: 'If Jones has a bulkhead
that is built out'~and has a return to it and his neighbor ~nce"re-
moved down the beach has one, the man in between should r'easonably be
asked to sbt his back to ~he current high water line, because, in
effect, that is the set back that you have i~esed on his neighbors
on each side. That is in the case of ~bulkheads.
In the case of'groins, we have some established yard sticks that
we go by as fa~ as lengths are concerned. Groins are the most
treacherous of the ocean front structures, .and the most disastar~us
to the neighbors .to the south, and have the most pronounced effect.
(3) 6-Z5-63
218
we have been a lot more careful with groins than we have with sea-
walls, ~'In the Ce'se of the Seagate it was a matter of the. bUl~head
{hat was going to project out into the. ocean and would 'in effect act
as a barrier to the sand flow to the south."
M~. Woodard: "1If an individual desired to construct either a
bulkhead or a groin, he would have to have the permission of either
the County if he resided in the County, or the Joint permission of
the County and the City if he were in the City. He would not have
the opportunity of constructing one on his own?"
Mr. Frost: "Thatts correct."
' Mr. Agery: "The question comes to my mind on these'bulkheads
that were allowed recently, you referred to two, Wecker and someone
else, with the County."
Mr. Frost: "The original one, I feel pretty sure that was the
'Kinney 'J ob."
Mr. ttughson: "Bob Blake was. the architect on' that. When they
built the house they felt the need for protection and I'm sure that
Bob went to the County and then he went to the Council."
Mr. Avery: "How about this last one?''
Mr. Hughson: "The last one, I believe Ralph Miss who was re-
presenting ........... . Mr. Frost, did Miss come to you on the Wecker
Job? It seems to me. that he had gone to you and indicated that the
control was still in Delray Beach."
Mr, Frost: "I really couldn't tell you. The files would re-
fleet that, but let me say this. We dontt police this thing. We
don't go out and look for people who t~y to do these things. If we
see one through our own activities, we do something about it but we
don~t go out and police it as such."
Mr. Avery: "If we issue permits When you haven't issued one, we
are operating illegally, is that correct according to the State Legis.
lature?"
Mr. Frost: "Ask your Attorney over, there."
Mr. Avery: "Then It is up to us to see that you have issued
one or we would both be ~in the wrong."
Mr. Frost: "I think it would show up to this advantage. I~ you
issued a permit and the abutting property owners complained of dam-
ages I thin~ that you might be in a position of legal criticism."
Mr. Avery: "Does this apply to anything built on the ocean
front like' a residence or. anything else? Anything built on the ocean
front requires a permit from both bodies."
Mr. Frost: "I~m talking about sea front structures like bulk-
heads, groins, and retaining walls. Anything that is subject to the
open action of the sea."
Mr. Woodard: "Another hypothetical situation, if I understood
you correctly, if you have two seawalls and the 'portion of land in
between the two has eroded, .that individual would have the right then
to build a seawall at the same point that the other two seawalls were'
built."
Mr. Frost: "That would be my Judgment, If this thing, Mr.
Woodard, was put pUrely a matter of technical JUdgmeht, the law
doesn't say where it should go~ The law says the Boar~ of County
Commissioners and the City shall issue'permits. We ha~e to. Judge
the effect on the neighbors and fairness to the individual."
Mr. Woodard: "Hypothetically, what if you had ~he reverses
sitUation.. If you ha~ two seawalls~, and for some. reason the land had
filled in-In between and the beach at that point were further out
-- . (4) 6-25-63
than th~ two abutting proper'ties?" -:.
M~. Frost: "Then We would be inclined to bOnify the accumula-
tion inward. In other words the man that had improved land-so to
apes.k, we would ask him to set his seawall back to s modified point
maybe net all the wa~, back but certainly to a modified point above
the high water line. ''
M~. Jacobsen: "Hew de we get the high water line? Is that a
series of court decisions?"
Mm. Frost: "I~m afraid it is~ Yes sir. In a case of actually
pinpointing it. tn the field of terminations, Ken as you know, first
off the County will require on all' permits for bulkheads and groins
that it be designed by a registered engineer, someone who is author-
ized to practice in the State of Florida. The principle reason for
this is that the County does not take the responsibility for the
constructurel adequacy of the wall, as Col~Fabens will tell'you. A
man comes along on the ocean front and h~ wants to build a wall that
we think is structurally inadequate so far as the pounding effect
of the sea is concerned, all we can do is to t'ell him about it. If
he wants to build something that we think is going to fall down, w.e
tell him about it and if he persists in doing it, that is his busi
ness, but we require that he has someone to design this for him ~hat
should, under the laws of the State of Florida, be adequately trained
to such things."
Mr. Talbot: "George, then from what you melated, I personally
see no reason to establish a bulkhead tine. ~Each. case should come
individually and the City should police it andlwork with you on any
permits."
Mr. Frost: "That's partly true, but I think that you can see
that the establishment of a line from the north city limits to the
south city limits is something that you can'~t do."
Mm. Avery: "It may change tomorrow."
Mr. Talbot: "It Just doesn't make sense to establish one."
Mr. Frost: "Thatts right. It will be a general guide but it
won't be a guide five years from now, for you dontt know whether or
not the be.ach is going ~to erode er ~improve."
Mr'. Talbot: "I would like to ask Just one~more question. I
don't want to prolong this meeting. This is meant to be ~n i~telli-
gent question. The Wecker bulkhead and the Kin~ey bulkhead, and we
had quite a bit of erosibn then, the~state did at the corner of ~IA.
Could that~ erosion~ at that point be attributed to the two bulkheads
which are approximately three to five hundred feet north of there."
~. Frost: "A lot of it would depend oh how far out those bulk-~
heads were. Did they project out into the water during the ~ime of
the storm that caused the erosion?"
Mr. Talbot: "I can't answer that question. They project fur-
ther out on the coastline."
Mr. Hughsen: "They are in line with the Bath and Tennis Club.
In other words it's almost a continuous line where any bulkheads have
been built. In line with what was built in Gulfstream."
Mr. Frost: "In all probability, net."
Mr. Talbot: "This point which eroded, I would say would be
approximately fifty $o one hundred feet back from the bulkhead if.i~ou
tried to draw a north and south line. WOuld ~hat be true? It wO~Xd
net be factual."
Mr. ?rest: '!No."
Mr. Hughson: "Before the b~lkhead line was e~tabli~hed by the
Wecker Property the high water mark at that time was established at
twenty-six feet further East than where they built their Bulkhead,
and now I don~t presume/'at average high tide thsy wou~d have over
six or eight" feet of sand at t~e base of their bulkhead with con-
tinual increasing high water mark at this time of year, or this
season. '!
Mrs. Frost: "It wouldn't sound like it right off hand. Another
feature of groin construction or sea front construction that"you run
across and you will see, especially across from the Gulfstream Golf
Course, and several places up there, you will see small short groins,
and will notice that they are all about thirty feet in length. This
is the maximum length that we have permitted without backfilling of
the groins es a required part of construction. If the groins go over
thirty feet we have required that they backfill immediately after
construction with sand from sources other than the beach."
Someone asked if those were the only groins concerned.
Mr. Frost: 'Yes sir. So far as I know they are, They are the
only ones to my recollection. THere may be more that are older than
my time .with the County."
Mr. Hanna: "I would like to know if all requests to build sea-
walls and bulkheads are granted."
Mr. Frost: "With the Couhty?~ Practically all of them. The
only one to my recollection that was not granted in finality was the
one at Seagate, but that is not to say that they were all granted
in the initial form."
Mr. Hanna: "What prompted my question was that should an owner
have a piece Of ocean front property that he wanted to develop,"being
an architect I run into that., and to protect that property he has as
of' July 1, 1963, and to design, a building out here and'~to prote~t
what property he has in vision. ~tf he were to put in an application
for a bulkhead in regard to the high wa~er line, would it be granted,
even though it would be detrimental to the property to the South."
Mr. Frost: ~'IF it was put at the high water line ~it would be
difficult to say that it would be detrimental to the property to the
South."
Mr. Hanna: ,,Nm. ~rost, ~.~heoretically, if that permit was granted
today on an isolated strip, the only one for 2,000 feet in each
direction. That although if granted today, today as to the coastline
it is not detrimental to anyone in either direction. After the next
developed Easterner of about eight or ten days duration, let's say
that the property on either side has eroded away, then this might in
a future, date become detrimental."
Mr. Frost: "That's correct,' and you will ~ind instances JuSt
like this up and down the coast line. If you take a light airplane,
for example, and Fly up and down the coastline you can find ten ex-
amples of Just what you are talking about."
Mr. Hanna:-~ "WHat~ I had particularly iff'my mind. A property
owner as of today has a prerogative, if-he wants to spend the money,
to protect the property that he owns as Of now."
Mr~ Frost: "That,s correct. Now in ~addttion to that the pro-
perty owner ~has the legal right, as I understand'~it, to protect his
property, permit or no permit. We hav~ had instances where during
a Northeastern a storm has washed out a portion bf a per~ons ~ro-
perry and endangered the 'improvements on the ~emaini~ng pa~t, an~ in
a ca. se ~'Just like this, the property owner engaged a contractor and
put in aseawall. We went to the.County _~ttorney and we said ~Where
does this. man stand?~ His opinion there was that the man had an
inherent right to protect his property when he was about to lose it."
Mr. Hanna: "That brings up one other question.to mind. If by
the first of July the coastline at a given location, and you have,
lets say landscaping, you have certain improvements on it, and fir-
(6) 6-25-63
221
teen days later we have a Northeastener that erodes away fifty feet
of this man's lot, and then he comes babk wiZh a'request to build
this bulkhead out where this property was that had been washed away,
would he be granted this permit to let him truck in fill and fill it
up."
Mr. Frost: "No sir. What is lost I-s lost. It was an act of
God or an act of nature that this land has been taken from them."
M~. Hanna: "~ost land cannot be regained, but you can protect
it as of a given date."
Mr. Frost:' "As of a given date, yes sir. Bit if the act of God
puts the land back, it goes back to the individual."
Col. Fabens: "On a6count of ~y location on North 0c~an Boule-
vard, the ocean cut in last March and the March before that, into ~I~
HighWay. I think something should be done before next March When it
may cut off the Poad altogether. That the purpose of this meeting
is how we can .start on that, at least that is my feeling on it."
Mr. Avery: "Which brin6s to mind something we talked about some
two or three years ago and it was mentioned. You-know we are con-
cerned with beach erosion the same as everybody else in the..¢oun~y.
Does the County take any stand or help with beach erosion?"
Mr. Frost: "Nothing other than overall correction."
Mr. ~very: "It was suggested by an Engineer at an informal meet-
ing, and this was Supposed to be a man who was very good on erosion,
that maybe in Delra2~s instance artificial nourishment by the means
of a slack-line cable, that is Just a long dragline, we have a sand-
bar that sets off of our beach, and that the use of a slack-line
cable setup, about every quarter of a mile you set a piling out here
and pull this sand bar in, and with artificial nourishment protect
our beach. When we get these Northeasterners, Just pull-it Up and
nature takes care of it and spreads it for us. Is that a feasible
thing?"
Mr. Frost~~ "I don~t really know wha~ you mean by it being
feasible. I can tell you that J~st such~a proposition is going
be started this summer up 6n Jupiter Island. They are going to have
a dragline dra~ the ~and bac~ in on the beach. Col. Gee, an Engi-
neer at West Palm Beach explained this~to the~merican'.~Shore-and
Beach Preservation Association recently do~ in Fort Lau~erd~le.
They are going to giv~ it' a. try. He says he'can m~ve that sand back
on the beach for .30~ a yard. The town of Palm BeaCh, in the m6xt
couple of' months, is going to renourish selected places alongPalm
Beach Island with trench sources. They will artificially nourish.
several selected places."
Mr. ~very: "With what'sources?"
Mr. Frost: "From food bar sources. Just like you are talking
about but they can move it by dredge rather than the other way."
Mr. Avery: "Then it will behoove us to watch these operations
because we may come up with a very~good idea, because it doesn't~
change the character of our beach, it doesn't hurt our neighbor and
yet it gives us something fair.~ If we spend all'kinds of money rick-
racking, dumping rock, etc. and .... well, you have answered my -
question. Now.the, we have a problem ~hich is Seagate 01ub. You are
familiar wi~h it because of the original request. We had a l~tter
re6ently from the Beach Owners ~ss6ciati~n ~own below-there saying
that they-understood, now this is all hearsay, they haven't seen any
definXte a~plication, but ~hey underst6od and had conferences with
the man tha~ own~ the Seagate Club, that they were .going to'put in
groins. That me~ns that ~hey are going ~o apply for gr~ins, and we
assured them, that we would fight it because groXns is a dirty wBrd.
What is your opinion of the attitude we should t'ake abo~t the Se~-
gate Club in solving their problems? If you remember, and if I am
not mistaken, when they put that swimming pool forward, the permis-
(7)
sion wa~ ~anted, but unOer p~otest. Is that correct. And said they
would ha~e to live ~ith it and if they got in'trouble with it, it was
their own baby. What would your attitude be on'this?"
~. Frost: "Well, let me ask you this. Wh~re were they going
to put 'the g~oin? Would it be north of the Seagate Club?"
I~. ~very: "It wOuld be assumed that, and this is. only an
assumption, that they would put it on the south end of their property
so that they would get the buildup on the north end of the groin, and
which would damage the property owners below."
Mm. Frost: "Beach erosion is probably one of the simplest
pea~ing things that you and I have to deal With, and yet no one has
found a solution. We blast 'people into space and all of that, but
we cantt seem to find a solution to the' beach erosion problem. They
have tried groins, etc. In one of my early contacts with beach cmo-
sion it was said that putting groins on the beach was something like
putting mink traps out theme, that you cantt trap anything that isn't
there. Generally speaking, the ~roblem now is where we already have
the completed beach. So you are going to stop a little sand with
g~oins, but in Stopping it you are going to rob ybum neighbor to the
'south. If Seagate puts. in g~otns, you can bet that the people to the
south ame going to suffer, but the desime of people,~ of course,"is
to protect thelb property or improve their property, and"'it is hard to
say we are not going to permit you to put ih grbins because we
think it Will do s whole lot of ~ood. We have a lot of people that
put in these thirty foot g~otns and I would imagine the cost would-'
be $80.00 or $90.00 per foot to put them in: I don~ thi~k they have
done an awful lbt of good as' theme is Just ~s much w~ter out in f~ont
of ~he Gulfstream Golf Club as theme eve~ was, yeam around, generally
speaking. I don~t think they do a lot of good. If they are too long
they do an.awful lot of harm to the.people to the south."
' '~. ~very: "But the history of this Seagate Club, I think it
was Arvida that built that, they were told, it was under protest and
finally let them do it but they wer® told they would-have to live
with it. This is a history. What will be the County,s attitude for
the constmuction of a g~oin on the south property lineS"
Nm. Frost: "This is real general. The County's attituOe ~ould
be that they would .let them build a thirty foot groin."
M~. ~ve~y:' "Why?"
M~. Fmost: "We don~t think it.would do a gr~at deal of hamm, a
shomt length groin would not do a g~eat deal of harm, but o~ the other
hand we would object to anything a whole lot longer: than that. We
draw the thetical figure of thirty feet --- twenty-nine to thirty-one
feet .... from high water mark seaward."
M~. Avemy. You don't think it wouId do the property owners to
the south m~uch harm. It would do some hdrm, but not much."
.Mm. Fmost: "Not much harm. Some harm, yes. 'We have had people
who insist on doing this."
· M~. Avemy: "That would have to carry'the appmoval of the city
and the County."
Mm. Frost: "I would have to go and refresh myself on this Sea-
gate mattem. It is all in cum files the sam~ as in yours. '~
collection is that they wanted to build a seawall or bulkhead out
theme that projected into the ocean, into the wa~em, as a mattem of
fact, I ~hink i~t Went in. to the water six feet deep. We came down
here and objected to it on behalf of the Board of County Commissionems.
The City also disapproved of it, and' they built whatever they built
on pilings s~& that in the event, there*was, emoslOn that the watem would
wash undem it and it-~ould not be detrimental to the people to the
south. I don't know what the final construction was. I think that
swi~n~ing pool over .there is On piling."
( 8 ) 6-25-63
228
M~. Worthingt "Only you~ honor, that back in 1956, as Nm. Frost
has mentioned that was also the definite opinion of M~. MfddletOn.
He personally did not feel that, and this came out during one ~f the
several meetings that they had here, some of which were official and
some were not.-- those that weren't were the on~s that I dtd~t at-
tend and therefore that is why I said at.the start of this m~eting
that I didn't lu~ow what had transpired to an~ degree of accuracy,
however, M~. Mtddleton was of' the definite opinion t~at such factors
would not, in the fut~e, d~mag~ properti~s either way from the
sult of storms, etc. and that was his personal."Opinion on gr~lns.
That came out in one of the me%tings at the Seagate time. Later on
when the --- there were many many meetings, they were almos$'monthly
in 19~6 ~nd 19~? and sometimes more than once s month. At 'One tl~e
in 19~6 the C~unty suggested that the City tak~ steps to pr~ide a
desired, so called, bulkhead line, however, that resulted iM the work
done by M~. Cares. ~s M~. Frost stated, it w~s f~lt right alon~ by
various people brought in on these studies that each is almost an
individual problem in itself owing to the coastline of Sou~h'~lorida,
or fo~ that matter any ~ther territory. A straight' line cannot serve
the purpose of a bulkhead line for ali p~operties, and furthermore,
he frequently brought out the fact that a property owner, in his
opinion, to a large dsg~ee has the right to protect his property."
City Attorney Adams: "M~. Chairman, I may be premature here,
but I Just wanted to make a couple of comments. Of course, in 19~6
this Joint control between the City and the County~ I~m relatively
sure occurred in May of 1957, soprobably a hearing would take a
different form than it did in 19%6. One of the reasons for this
meeting, I was hoping, was that we would set up some kind of a legis-
lation in the City to control how permits are given to the city and
what the procedure would be when a permit was received. At the-pre-
sent time, I imagine it would be up to Mr. Hughson to either grant
it or deny it. Is that right?"
M~. Hughson: "At least three months ago I got a call on ~hat
M~. AVery indicated might have been here~a~ do~n there~ I got a call
fr~m an attorney who was representing Seagate and he wanted to know
what I would· do"if they brought in ~ome plans' for. so~e groins or sea-
walls or bul~heads down there. I said I would probably refer them
to the Council, because we do not have any established line where I
could allow them to be built."
~ttorney ~dams: "Thatts pretty much wh~t I h~d in mind. It
would be somewhat like'a zoning change. It would be referred possi-
bly to the Planning Board, to the.City Engineer and then to the
Council to either grant or deny these permits."
Mr. Avery: "I think this is the type of thing that is loose
that we should strengthen."
Attorney Adams: "It is not necessarily loose. I think we could
handle it now by going to the Council, but rather than just saying
groins are dirty words, we don~t like groins, we probably should
certainly have a hearing and engineering study on the thing and come
up with some fact findings rather then Just say we don~t like groins.
Mr. Jacobson:' "Don~t you t~ink that we have a whole mile of
beach here that we don~t have too much of a problem in the private
property. We have a limited amount. What I am trying .to say is tha~
it could be handled by individual permits."
Mr. Avery: "One thing about artificial nourishment of our beach
is that there is very little property north of our beach that if .we
artificially nourished our public beach, the rest of our city limits
to the south then benefit as it gees down. Zt wouldn't do you much
good Col. Fabens, but we might talk good to the City Manager and let
him dump' some of it up there too. ~ have the answers that Z want.
It can't' be a definite thing~ Each situation is going to. be surveyed
individually fo~ any chsnges ~rom year to year."
Mr. Talbot: "This has been very enlightening, however, I think
this Council should set up definite procedure on it. Groin or seawa~
(9) 6-2~-63
224.
~l'ications on the oab*uu ahoulc~ ~ofini'~ly '~0' t~ugh certain chan-
nels and be approv,d 'by the Council, .and in that way the Council '
could help the County police this thing."
Mr. Avery: "Since we have Mr. Pros{ here and .the advantage of
his thinking, letts meke some notes and suggestions and direct the
Attorney to proceed with this legislation and see how we are going.
Counselor, do you have any suggestions?"
Attorney Adams: "Certainly we dontt want to impose the burden
on Mr. Hughson of making the decisions. I would imagine it would be
somewhat like a .rezOning application. It would be .immediately turned
over to the Council and the Council from there would decide whether
it should be automatically sent to the PlanningBoard. I wouldn't
know, I mean, that Would Just be up to you."
Mr. Avery: "I think it should automatically go to the Planning
BOard, 'the County Engineer and the City Engineer. .There is a whole
lot. to be done and I think a public hearing should be required on
this ty~e of thing. Does anybody have anything to suggest as to the
proposed legislat'ion so the City Attorney can start drawing it up.
Mr. Sinks, do you have any thinking on this?"
Mr. Sinks: "The Planning Board has been waiting for this meet-
ing for some three months now as the City CounCil requested that the
Planning Board make some recommendations .to the City Couhcil per-
tairring to the bulkhead line. I believe the Planning. Board would
very much like for it to come through the City Council to the Plan-
ning Board for their recommendation."
Mr. Ave. fy: "With the concurrehce of the rest of the Commission,
with the suggestion or direction that we include the' City Attorney in
on this, because this is legislation and I .wOuld like for him to be
included so that your recommendations would be things that he concurs
with legally. Do the rest~ of the Council concur with thiS?''
Mr. -Hanna: "While we have M~. Frost' here I would like tO get a
question answered. Is there any p~.rticular good starting place.
Would this be approved first by the .City or would it be approved
first by the County? I was wondering if there were any arguments pro
or con on that, so the Planning Board could consider that aspect too."
· Mr. Frost: "Generally we do this on a joint basis. The town
Of Palm Beach does an awful lot of ocean front construction. The
town itself builds bulkheads. They will send us preliminary drawings
that they received from somebody. If an individual wants to build
something in the town of Palm Beach, they request that the individual
give them three copies of tbm plans. As soon as they get it they
shoot one copy over to us. In other words, they don't make a deci-
sion on it until we can get our heads together. We Jointly do this
thing. If we dOn~t like it we tell the town engineer."
Mr. Avery: "The proper way then is for our City Engineer to
confer with you."
.Mr. Frost: "I think it ~ould serve all 0~ us better' if we
didn't get to the $mpass of having the COunty approve it and the City
deny it,~. Let me s~ay"this, there isn't one of these permits~ issued-
that we don'~t s~nd a registered engineer down to look at-it personally
before we make any sort of determination, It is too vital to us and
to the people around the property and to the property owner."
Mr. ~acObson: "If the County and the City approve ~an application
for a bulkhead over. the protests of the adjoining neighbors, ai~d it
reSUllted in damage to the property to the south, are the City and the
County liable?"
City. Attorney Adams: "Z wouId doubt it. Not acting in a govern-
mental capacity. I mean, you'can't make a flat statement. It would
depend on how it was done. Generally I would say no, bUt there could
be circumstances, of course.~ There could be an extreme case where
they were negligent."
Mm~. Jacobson: "I think we should be so careful about those
things ss Mr'. Frost says you never can-tell what this ocean will do.
What you think it is going ~o do or that it is not'going to do any
serious damage. The man that protested the bulkhead to begin with I
think would have some recourse."
Attorney Adams: "Certainly damages are only granted when it is
as a result of approximate forseeable cause. I mean it would have to
be something that the City should have foreseen and was negligent in
not acting. An unusual act of God is not necessarily foreseeable."
M~. Jacobson: "To me, I think the best engineering available
is the County and they have been studying this erosion since 1957,
and I think that we should have more contact with them."
Mr. Avery: "This seems to accomplish the purpose of our meeting.
Mr. Worthing in the transcription of the minutes of this meeting, I
request that Mr. Frostst statements be verbatim, that a copy of the
minutes be given to the Planning/Zoning Board and sent to Mr. Frost
and to Mr. George Warren. I want his comments verbatim because
editing might change them to reflect and this will give them the
advantage of all of his statements."
Mr. Frost: "I want to apologize to the group for being ~o hard
to get at. Itm not usually so hard to find, but I do know. that I
talked to Mr.' Jacobson about this two or three months a~o, ahd for a
few weeks I have had a very rushed'p~ri~d, but other than that I~m
usually available, I~m especially ~vailabl~ for evening meetings and
I will be glad to come down at any time that I don~t have something
pre-scheduled."
Mr. Avery: "I Want to thank you Mr° Frost for co~ing down with
us and I thank Mr. Warren for giving his time'and for giving his
wonderful contribution. Your fine comments have been Kery helpful Mr.
Warren. I want to thank you gentlemen of the Planning/Zoning Board
because you are busy people and it was very fine of you to attend.
This meeting is adjourned."
(11) 6-25-63