Loading...
08-29-63SpMtg AUGUST 29, 1963 A special meeting was ~held in~.tha Couilcil Chambers at 8100 P.M., Thursday~ aUgtlst 29, 1963, with Mayor Walter Dietz in the Chair, City Manager Robert J. ~lla~, City At~o~ey Jo~ ~ss Ad~s~ ~ ~cil- men A1 C. Avery, ~ory J. ~arr~' ~rge Ta~ot, ~., ~ Qliver W. Woodard, Jr. ~ng present. ~ o~ing prayer was delivered by City Clerk worth~ng, Mayor D~.etz call~ the meeting to order ~d ~no~ced t~t s~ had been called ~r the purpose of ~scuss~on ~ RuSsell & ~o~ on ma,- tars per~a~ning to the S~age ~rks Pro,eot ~ for any Other business w~oh may c~e before the mastiC. Mayor D~etz aske~ that the it~ ~ncerning water ma~n extension the new ~ge ~en=~ on North Pe~eral ~ghway be cons~er%~ ~t this t~me, as ~. Hauser ha~ ~exe~ ~s lan~ to' ~lray Beach a~ needs water in order ~ s~art building. City Manager Holland read the foll~ing m~or~d~ fr~ City Bngl- near Flying, dated Augus~ 23, 1963= 'Attaohe~ is a print, marke~ in color to sh~ thr~ d~fferent r~tes for the water main extension to the propose~ location of the new ~dge agency on t~ west s~de of Federal Highway op~eite the sew R~oh HoUse. Plan ~B'~ and ~C~ .entail bringing a water main nort~ard e~er along ~e Old Di~e or along the west side of the Federal Hig~ay to the proposed site. Either of.~ese plus would re.ire ease- ~nts and per. ts fr~ ~e Co~ty or State Hig~ay Deponent, ~e estimated cost of extending a line along ~e Old Dixie approx~ately $1700 ~d the cost of ~ng, it alo~ the 'P~eral ~ghway ~8 approximately $2000. ~ere ~s,some ~est~on no ~ the avail~il~ty of the eas~ent a~ng the Old Di~e. advantage,o~ extending the water in eit~; of ~ese t~ ~at the ~ea be~en ~e ~isting crossing at ~yal Pa~. Court and the proposed ~dge agency pro~rty could be served wa~er at any time they decided to come ln~o ~e city. P~ ~A' pro~ses the extension of a 6" l~ne nort~ard along the easterly s~de of.~e Federal ~g~y fr~ the ex~st~ng at ~e R~ch ~use at Allen Avenue, thence crossing ~de=. the Federal' H~g~ay by me~s o~ a 2" service l~ne ~o serve ~e property ~n ~estion. ~s installation.~uld be much less e~ens~ve, somewhere ~n the ne~g~orhood of ~600, and ~uld pro~ly re.ire only a pe~mit-fr~ the State H~ghway which would ~e water avail~le more ~ickly to ~e proper~y. I~ would be my rec~endation that PI~ ~A~, the least e~ensive pl~, be adopted at this t~me. At such t~me as ~e area on the westerly side of ~e ~eral ~ghway m~ght be ready to come within the city it wo~ld always be ~ssible to exten~ the mains either along the Old Dixie or along' the Federal ~ghway ~o During discuas~on, it was ask~ h~ long ~t ~uld t~e to get wat~ · o ~. Hauser's property under Pi~ 'A" ~d the City Engineer info.ed the Council that there may be s~e delay in getting the ~t fr~ the Sta~ Highway ~par~nt for crossing ~der the Federal also ~at the water main extension ~u~ have to be approved State Board of Health. It was estimated that it may be ~ox~mately ~ mon~hs before water c~ld be furnished to ~. ~Vaer~s property. ~. ~user asked if ~here ~s a ~ss~b~li~y of getting a t~por~y water line installed in order that he m~y not delay ~e~po~ ~a~ . · .~ae~' - ':,the Delr~Y a ' : so~e ~e ~e the ~hre ~_~ ~ '' ~ .~ ~i '~=~=~ cOmP~'J _~ 'have ~' ~e ~eaS~"_~= a Lo~~_ ~a~.h~s ~-__ 'e~='- .tl:eze this, ~.~OU ' O~ , th~ the a~ s in the . , ' ~ ~happ~- · · :an~-~ . . .*e~e ~.-~ 4 .'~, .... ' o~ ~ ' ~o T.,,e,,~e~e~ '~"..~,~' :'B"'~~-'' __si~i'~x _ ~,,~ecC-~"_ _. are tha~, ~ (, .... sewe ..... ~tlY' ace t~ -- e, ~ the ~: _.. dra~, ~'* ~i~:' $~" ~ ...-~ ~' ' _-., ~x,~'~ T~_~S~p~ - _ pu ~ ~=_~6, ~o~, S'? ~ ~ ~ *0~a~ ~ - ~he. P~' here = e~ the a~ -8e~ that ~ - - is" the . _~. % ,,~11 ~at ~ ~ ..... ~y ;., ' __. to~see~'[_.,e seveZa~ turn 't:' ~* .~ ~t~P~ -~obl~' _.e'not O"~l~e~r~ '~ "-_. ~"' .- oing ~6 s~age ~"~ ~0~" , ~--C~*-_ ~e a '~7 ~Sl'lenge ' .~; ~ ~e'll~s"~ _~oke8 o~ ~_ =.fences n~ _-. ~it~n9 ~6~~ --. ~ ~-. _~ag~ ~' ~.=.; ~he ~'~ _.~. 0~: '~'_- ~ ,~olO~~' _ ~ ~*--'!~,~ ~e~: ~"-~-~"~es;' ~aSU~'0~ '- .,-e a~ "out your axe and let the prove~bial chips £1Y. or make some kind of statement that will take these onerous whispers or rumors of and chicanery o£~ the backs of 'the administration, the. ~ontr&ctors and the engineers. 3:£ necessary, before this meeting £s over~ and if public does not-have the answer to t~Ls, I w£1l make a mo~on that the Mayor be directed ~o explain fully his remarks that have gi~.n, the people m~oh ~ental discomfort about the abilities and the $~.~entions of this Ocu~cil. That's all 3: have to say., Mr. Mayor." Mayor Diet~-~ 'Thank you, Mr. Avery. Have you anything t~ say, Mr. Talbot?' He asked for an opening statement." Mr. Talbot~ "No. 3: have no opening statement other tha~ the faot that I am certain1 that all the problems that have presented themselves can be ironed out tonight. It's no, uncommon for a project ~ this size to have problems like we have had, and .I for one hold nothing against anyone or anybody in regard ~o this. It's ~roblems ~hat can be .. can arise in a similar nature to this, and all I am i~erested in doing is getting .the organizational wind-up, so that we cad ~o from here and get the sewer in the ground and get it in the groun~ proper~ ly." Mr. Woodard: "The only thing I might say at this Stags o~ the meeting is that I thi~nk the meeting is certainly indicated. I hope, during the c~urse of the evening, we are able to~ keep out of thi~ because personalAties have no place in the Ci~M ~Of Delray Beach getting the job done and getting it done properly, and ~getting it done to everybody,s sat~sfaotion~ ,I...h. op~ we can all concentrate on Mr. Ba~3:o~= '~e 'only' thing '5 have. in my min~l is"%]~at t~e enginee~s drew ~p a set of plans and specifications ~that call for'certain in th~s contract,' We let a oont~ac~ on this basis, and to the best 'of m~ knowledge, at this t~q~e we have ~,h~rt~ manholes in place ~hioh do not meet our specifications . · plans or specifications, ~e have dent inspectors, we have resident engineers. 3: would like to kno~' how and why those thirty-manholes are in the g~'ounc~ With all the inspectors and engineers that ~e' have. 3: have no axe to grind with anybody. ~Just want to see the city get what it contracted for and ~at i~ is paying for. I don't believe that when we ar~ pa~ing for brick and gett~.ng precast concrete that ~e are gett~.ng.,what ~e are paying for. 3:1: ~as my interpreter,.on of the contract that any major change would come be£o3:e this Council to be decided, and they were ~Ln .the ground before they ever approached the Council,. and 3: would like to kno~ ~hy they were in the ground before the Council was approached, and ho~ the~ got there, and who approved them, ~and on what authority the~ proved them. '" Mayor Dietz= "5 presume tha~ you are addressing your remarks to t. he firm of Russell & ~xon." Mr. Barro~ "! am addressing them to whoever ~t may concern in gard to this se~er problem. Russe~_l & Axon would seem to me to be the guys that 3: ~ould be add, easing it ~:oo" t~ayor Dietz~ "~.th tha~ since (]eorge Russell, the Vicks President of the. Company, ..~s.here~..he~' 3: presume., '~.~ll desig~ate who he-W.~tLs to an~ar Mr.~Barro.w~, That parson..wil! go to the m~crophons and give .his n~me and add~esa, 'and nov is the time. Y Mr, GeOrge Russell= '"Mr. Mayor, in the first place, T would like to express our apologies. Had ~e knovn this was coming up, 3: am sure Mr. Careen ~ould have delayed his vacat$on and ye would have both been here. However, since he had already left prior to our knov~edga of the meeting, 3: will do my feeble best to handle the meeting. ! also, rather than try to have four or..five people here at the n~Lcro- phone~ ! will attempt to answer the ~uestions myself and get advice from whomsoever ! ma~ need.. My name is George Russell. 3: am Executive Vice President of Russell & ~xon, from Daytona Beach· Since the point raised at this ~unct£on, and very frankly the only technical point that T have ascertained that has been raised to date, is the question of some thirty manholes. I will art.erupt to explain our position on this. As I understand it, Mr. Steinhilper, who is the ~'ndividual WhO we have. placed in Cha~ge 'of a11 our oonstruction in "S~ate of' Florida, has written a letter .of.explanation 'but. rather tha~ ' ~er~. 'are" some thirty manholes which are not bHil~ in accordance · ~%h-speU~at~on's. 'I ~ght a~d ~at ther.e..~s a.'large ~ of con- struction which is built in accord~ce w~th specifications. By rea~ing the papers, one-'might" pres~e that this-is all that has been built, these thirty m~nholes, in ~he City 'of Delray Beach. In our origina'! specifications, we '~.euifie~ brick manholes. We did ~ot include ~ alternate e~al of cast-in-~lace manholes. Cast- in-place ma~oles .. is everybody f~iliar with the tem~" 'Mayor Dietz= "~y ~on't you e~lain what a cast-in-place manhole ~r. Russell~ "Alr~ght, Sir. ~ cast-in-place m~hole ~s a manhole in which the .ho~ is exuavate~ for the m~nhole. The fo~s- are ~lace~ in'the hole an~ 'the concrete is p~red ~n the fo~s,-~d the fo~s re- moved. That is an over s~lifie~ e~lanat~on, but still I think se~es the pu~ose here." MayOr. Diet~= "~r the benefit 'of ~he p~lic, ~uld you e~lain, woul~ the hole be dug a certain size and woul~ something be ~one ac- cording ~o some specifie~ way .that-they woul~ pour the concrete?" ~:. Russell~ "Yes, Sir. You would have a spec~fte~ ~ei · s~reng- th Of concrete, a. Specifie~ mix of con,re,e, ~d the concrete woul~ be p'oured .. the base .. to a specif~ed eIevation, ~d at a epecific fo~, I might Mayor Dietz= "~a woul~ there be a specific reinforcementS" ~. Russell= "Yes. The reason ~ d~d not include ~e cast-in- place m~holeS in our specifications is because, I ~11 ~eak for my- s~'If .~&nce 9rofess&onal o9tnions vary on a~ost any subject ~ou might want to ~s~ss. ~ey are equal, of equal ualiber to brick m~holes, however, we will say .in the majority, in fact I ~uld say at least ninety times out of one hun~e~, they will be bid in at a higher price or they wi11 cost the citize~ more for a product which is e~al to, but nc.better ~an. For ~is reason, we no longer use th~ in our specifica~ons. We ~o, howler, cons~er them in our engineering ju~ent, ~ e~al ~roduct. We wer~ re~ested by. the contractor to permit sUbstitut~on of .cast-in-plaue m~holes ~or brick manholes .." '~. 'Barry= "Mr. 'Mayor, may I inter~t~ If I ~ properly info~e~ we'have five ca~t~-place manholes. We have ~enty-five precast m~- holes. ~ till noW, I have not heard ~body rec~end those." ~. Russell= "I ~ going to cover this whole manhote situation. It ~s a pretty good long s~Ject." (~ntinutng from the place where ~. Barr~ interbred) "at a reduued price. We were re~este~ to allow the change fr~ brick m~holes to cast-in-place manholes. In ou~ engiAeering Ju~ent, we ~re getting ~ e~al 9ro~uct for a Aesser 9rice, which woul~ norma'lly cost more. We,. in the ~erson of ~. Stein- hilper, a~reed to a11~ the cast-in-place manhole," Mr. BarrY= "May I ask a ~est~on there? Is ;~at not a major change ~" ~. R~ssell= "Sir, I w~s ~t 'to 'c~er'.:~at. The point of whether it was a major change or nOt'~ght get ~-to a legal ..point.but how- ever, I ~11 say this. I~ my opinion, ~ Ste~'nhil~er .shoul~ have tanned the o~inion ~d understanding of the en~re Co~ss~on before approving ~y such change ~ I ~ink ~. Steinhilper will agree. ~at was ~ error ~n ~. Ste~nhi;l~er~s jud~ent." Mayor ~etz~ "Reg~ing::a.point of legality~ he should, not have receive~ an oPen,on of th~s Cocci1, he should .have gotten ~ agproval of ~h~S Counui~,, because .no part of the Contract says that you c~ contact indivi~ual Counci~en for their a~roval." Mr. ~ssellt "I was referring to the Counuil as a body and he shoula ha~e obtained their approval,. I ~on't think he a~ues this. It was an error in ju~e~t. I w~t to ~iec~ss ~h~s, because this applies all the way through.- We ~o not maintain that ~y of our sonnel,' inClud~ng'the.:spea~er, ~o not .make errors in Jud~ent.- We howeve=~ feel 'that ~t' is our job to'see t~t the errors in ju~ent ~ not i'~ ~y~way ha~ or cost our clients. Now, u9 to this point, -~e have a~roved a change .which, ~h~ough ~ error :in jud~en=,' should 'have been checked ~with the Commissic~ and wa~ no~ A~ thi~ Hint, the contrac~o~ puk in ~ive cask-in-place manholea, which, in m2 opim- ion, are at leaak e~al ~ khe B~ick manholes. He also puk ~ive other m~holes, a no~al precast m~ole, so.~is te~ has been'Used, and X underst~d ~e nomenclature is ~der s~ de~t, is m~ufactured in a yard at a ~actory ~d shipped by truck or tall to a. site. !~ this ~n- stage, this .individual nei~er purchasedprecast ~hol~ 0= cast the manholes in place. ~ cast ~ on ~e side of the d~tuh~ ~ailor made to each individual hole. As far as ~ ~, .~his is'not a St~dard production ~ethod, ~t isn't a precast m~hoie, .it isn't'a cast-~n- place m~hole, ~d it certainly is not a brick m~hole. 'It d~d not meet the ~ecifioa~ons. It did not meet our agre~ent w~t~ the con- tract. We .ca~ot, at any 2~e, prevent the contractors ~rgm putting in something which is ~ong. We c~ pr~ent h~ from being paid for this ~ong product ~t~l such time as he makes it right. If a con- tractor ~s building a house for ~ individual ~ he puts ~n jalousie windows when the individual contract~ for a~ing t~e Wi~d~s, the recourse t~ indiv~dual has in spite of in~ection, is not ~o pay for these. ~ C~ty of Delray Beach has not paid for these ma~h91es cast on the side of the ditch, nor the other five ~holes. We ~ave not reco~ended ~at they be paid for, nor will .we recomend thg~ they be paid for.. We., in other .words, at this point, the city has ngt bought anything which was not in accord~ce wi.th the specificat~onS'~' because they hav~'t bought it, ~d they haven,t been reco~ended by your engineers. We will no2 recg~end ~at these it, s be p~d' for. Our position is th~s, our ~nspectors made ~ error in jud~ent ~n allying ~e m~holes cast on the side' of the ditch t° be p~laced Mr. Steinhilper made ~ error in jud~ent. The City of.~ay'~each has not b~n ha~ed in .~y ~ay, .since it has cos~ th~ nothing-~d if ~ey so desire, the orig~nally specified m~oles will be placed in the project. In other.~rds~ it is our job to se~ that you get ~at you b~ght in accord~ce with the specificatio~S~ich the ~yor. so kindly said were excell.~t specifications. We will not certify any- thing that is not' in~ accord~ce with those ~ecifications ~'~out prior approval of the City ~ission'. We are nOt allowed. to. Our reputation ~uld not a~l~ us to ~d ~ do .ngt h~Ye ~y ~ntent to so. I believe this covers the m~hole s~ject as far as I can think. If there are ~y ~estions on ~is one s~ject, since it is the one that ~s brought up, I ~uld be glad to ~er ~. Wood~d: "I have a few ~est~ons. ~at are the specifications of the authorized s~stitute ~d who .drew the specifications?" ~. Russell: "I can't ~ote ~e specifications." Mr. Woodard: "Are there some ~ecifications for the aut~rized cast-in-place manholes?" ~. Russell: "They s~tted a drawing of w~2 ~ey pro, Bed ~rn[sh ~d I ~ rather s~e that we used a specification which we have previously used in cast-in-place m~holes. ~ese ~d not be~ ~mitted to the Co~ission, ~d at ~is point, since nobly w~ts a cast-in-place m~hole, I c~.see ~ point in s~mitt~ng th~." ~. Wood~d: . "The reason I m~e this point is that if m~holes were authorized to be s~stituted, I should think there wou.ld be specifications for th~." ~. Russell: ."They s~tted a d=awing, an ~gineer~ng ~awing, a sch~atic ~awing ~d with 3000_ pounds per s~are inch ~ncrete. That is a strength in ~h is the.measure of the concrete.. The grade, the fo~,~ would be, of'course, in acco~ance w~th the grade ~d ~th. the profile ~awings of the [o~ in ~cordance with the pl~-which they s~tted." Mr. Wood~d: "Woul~t no~al procedure be to get approval of some specificat, ions which are au~orized as ~ accept~le s~stitute before the actual s~stitution takes place?" Mr. Russell: "Yes, Sir, it would. We approved th~, but the nor- mal procedure wou~d be to obtain the approval of .. ~e understanding first, we should e~lain it to the Co~ission, ~d the approval of the C~ission. We ~derstood it but we did not ~lain it prior to, the fact is I do~t ~f to date ~t has been." -5- 8/29/63 o~ ~-Y ~n tha~ ~.._ been '~._ , Ace.= ~_ . ' Y othe~ ~hey a~.~ =zees. ~.~: cne area --*~' ~u~ We..=_~?en .... . .... ~nat ~- :'~nue~. a._.,. ~ are t~ ""~ are .?~... them ; ~Uaaeil~ ,,.. ' ~ .a~stteute ,~.nottfted.~-'ne~ Sub. · " ~n. ,, ~ ' ~ ze~er ~% . . . -"=~ ~as 'au~i,?~ tne=e a~mi~ed fo~ C~- "' . ~'zze~ by brfn.. UaSell~ ',,,..g? O=~e= ~. ~ed ~i~%.-..~Ston fo= -~ ParticUlar ~r. ~.._:~T a oon~r,_~er ~ha.t~ie r~a~ ~..~ r Dtet~ ..... , Sir. +.~,.g for .';,, ea 'to ~ ~... Page - co the City~' dz~g to v.,.~he ooastr~.,~truOtion.~_?~ n~, ma.~J~_ _,=aeli: ,,,. sPeoifi-~-. '~ taken' ~, =-'Plaoe _...~escs have ~"-= of the ' ~ You ma~: ~ . ~,u nOthtn~ ~:n~ '~. RUs~ = ~d .. ,, ~ear ~k.. ,, .. Sell: ,,~. . Y arOthe~a .._ Percent. ~' WOodard~ "Zs.zs la, U~der~ta~d~ a--- =oroe main on. 8eagerer ~Uld test 'these. t'he=e,. ~eSs, ~i=ty Pe=cea~ of -6- il ~he ~ob 317 percent completed and then gO back and find Out that half of what has. been Put ~n.is ...... '" Mr. Russell: "UnderStand me. We inspect as we go, sections .as they are available for testing. You have to clean it out. 'You have to wait until a whole' line is finished. Yo~ can't test part of a line, etc. Yes, We make these inspections as we go. We 'still.will not accept it because certain irregularities in construction will" not show Wp at the immediate time Of construction. We give them a little time to settle and check that. That is the final inspection. That is the reason for this final inspection." Mr. Woodard: "Of this thirty percent which is completed, how many of these inspections have we made? What percentage'of the thirty percent.is,inspected?" ' · ' Mr. Russell. About eighty percent of the lines in place have been lamped. That means they have been laid to line, in the 1Xne they were planned and specified, and to the grade they were planned and specified. They were made of the materials planned and 'speci- fied. The back fill is of the compaction specified. These things have been checked." Mr. Woodard: "When.pipe sections have been put together, is there a, even under ideal conditions, is there a normal anticipated per- centage of breakage that might take place when these pipes are put together, so that even under ideal conditions you might say that five, ten, fifteen or twenty percent of the PiPes that are hooked together might be hooked together incorrectly or broken or something and that they would have to be replaced when you inspect 'the pipes?" Mr. Russell: "It ts a fairlY small percentage. I dontt think it will be anywhere like the ten or fifteen percent. There w0uld~be some. This is again the reason for final inspection. They may lamp. The weight may come down. I imagine that percentage would .be down around .two percent. It is very sm, ll, however, you do still get e control---not a control but a w~ter flow through the b~st joint known which is not necessarily due to Breakage. We planned for this in our design. It is known as infiltration." Mr. Woodard: "Now this water flow. This is only tested at the final inspection. The water flow as such is not tested periodically during the - -" Mr. Russell: "It is visually observed. Measured at the en~ of the project. The force main has been checked. 'On the force main you make a pressure test." Mayor Dietz: "Which force main? PleaSe be specifiC." Mr. Russell: "The one on the Cleary Brbthe~s Job." MaYor Dietz: "Thatfs one force main that has been pressure tested at ninety pounds and came through very nicely." Mr. Woodard: "How many force mains do we have completed?, Mr. Russell: "One. One out of one is a high percentage." · Mr. Barrow: "One question that still sticks ~in my mind. They admit that they erred and I dontt think it is a small error. What do we do to prevent other errors on that basis?" Mr. RuSsell: "May I Say this. We have, in Our minds, we stand ready to correct the error in a manner which you want it corrected, however, so far as I know we have no determination on what manner that is wished. If ~they want them torn out and put in brick, or whatever is wanted to be done. The contractor, we can control the contractor. This is our Job." Mr. Barrow: "May I say this. We are not worried about you correcting it, because I think we are properly covered With a per- formance bond and all the kind of bonds that are necessary. We are concerned, like we are with these thirty mar~holes, of having to go back after they are put in place and dig ~er$ up and repIace them. Not worryin~ what it might cost us becaus~'' ~donf~ think it is going to cost us a dime. We are covered ~very way we can be covered there, but we would like to prevent that happening, we would like to get on the first go-around what we bought and Contracted for in the round so that there will be no necessity of having to go b~ck and ig up the streets and dig up the town the second time. That is the thing that I would like cleared in my mind tonigh.t." " Mr. Woodard: "At' this stage of the game I might comment that I~m not so sure that we are'completely protected. Your comment was that we are protected. I thought we were protected until tonight too, or until this morning when we received some distribution, I think per- haps it would be appropriate to wait until Mr. Russell gets through here, but as soon as he is through or until we are through.asking him questions for the moment, I-think it would be most appropriate to read a letter that wa have received today, from our insurance repre- sentative directed to the City Attorney, because this letter indi- cates, that perhaps we are not completely protected as we thought we were. ,r M~ Russell:. 'iMay I, before we get into the protection on that. You are Drotected, Gentlemen. You have a set of specific~tions. If something is .put in theme not in accordance with specification and not ~pproved by the engineer, it is .... you have no compulsion to pay. Mr. Barrow: "That would be my interpretation." Mr. Russell~ 'Your construction contract has nothing to do with your contract with Russell & Axon." Mr. Barrow: "But I still want to eliminate the possibility of having bhirty more manholes or anything else put in that has to be dug up. Thatts the question I.want cleared up tonight, and I want to know how it happened and why it happened other than Just you m~ke a mistake. I cantt understand an engineer making that big a mistake to allow twenty-five, which I have not yet heard anybody approve, precast manholes." Mr. Russell: "By the way, the$ have been used in many instances." Mr. Barrow: "I~m not arguing that point. I said'I havenft heard anybody, including our engineer or you~ engineer or anybody else, recommend precast manhbles." Mr. R~ssell: "Not at an equal price." Mr. ~arro~: "And we'got twenty-five of them in the ground already and the Council didnft approve them. Evidently you dXd, Now, I want to know, i~ that lust a mistake? I want to know how and why it happened, and I want to know if we ,re into' this thing and it is over three million dollars, if we are going, to have to watch everything from here on in to make sure that we don~t get' something in the ground that'we are not Daying for. I~m not worrying about'us paying for something we are not getting, because I am sure we are goiMg to be protected on that, but I don~t ~ant to see the public in the incon- venience of having the streets dug up and everything els~ the second time when I don~t see any reason for it. %~e have plans and specifi- cations and if they follow them that is all we are asking for." Mr.. Russell: "Sir, I would personally like to'eliminate every error I ha~e made or will make. I would like to eliminate every error that my men have made or will ever make, but up to this date I have found no way of doing that. I imagine I am not the only person in this room that has made errors and will make errors. We have built many Jobs. We have built many Jobs in accordance with specifications. We have made errors and we have corrected these errors. This, shall we say, mistake, coming as it did very early in the Job, relatively early in the Job, has made us even more, shall we say, tender' as re- gards any errors on the p~rt of any of our personnel than we ~lready were, and I think we are about as t~nder as anybody in the State. I could cite what I would consider really major .errors on the n~mber of Jobs that I know in the State from various engineers. They have been corr~cted"inmost instances. I"would say this is an'erro~. We make no bones about it. We sta~d ready to correct it in any way ~ou wish, and our intent is no~ to make errors. If I add two and t~o and ge~ five, I'm going to Say I won't do it again. You don~t m~ke ~he ~ame mistake twice. This we do insist upon our personnel. They may make it once,'~but twice, no." Mr. Barrow: "I~m very unhappy. I can't visualize twenty-fkve ma~nholes or.thirty manholes without being checked, being O.K~d, Just being an .accident." Mr. Russell: "May I ask one question? Mr. Barrow doesn't seem to be satisfied. WoUld he feel that it would behoo~eRussell · Axon to fire any individual, and there are more than one in this case, who make such an error. I want to make this point, either yes or no." Mr. Barrow: '"The newspapers called me and I said we were having an open meeting tonight.to ~et both, I fiE~re there are two sides to any question~ I want your side of it a~d then from there on we will go from our side of it." Mr. Russell: "Shall we say our men have made an error. The error has not only been forcibly, been called to their attention by the City of Delray Beach,~but rest assured by the Administration of Russell & Axon. We would not consider that this is an error of a magnitude in which we would discharge or remove anyone from this project." -e- Mr. Barrow: "We havenlt asked you to."- Mr. Russell: "I know you haven~ti~ I want to defend them. I have been saying they made an error. I make no bones aboUt that."'~ Mr. ~a~row: "We are trying to' get'Your side of it. I~ thin~ there are two sides to any-question and T want both sides of i~ before I form an opinion. Frankly,~I'm"disappointed in what we have' got so far. I have an open mind '~nd am willing to 1Xsten." - Mr.~USsell: "Sir, I have no way of indicating to ~nyon~ our proficiency without performance on the Job. Future performance will speak for itself." - Mr. Talbot: "I compliment Mr. George Russell. He has ~ome-clean, I think, on this particular point here.~ Mistakes can be made as I said a few moments ago. ~is is a mistake, and in m~ opl~ion the only harm that has been done~will be tO'certain citizens and that is unfortunate where these manholes are, but as it is it will be up to 'this Council to request that brick manholes be put in. Thet~s it, period. The most important thing after that is settled,~and that can be settled very easily on the manholes. Brick manholes~go.in and that is all there is to it, is to set up machinery that it will. help Russell & Axon because I still have profound respect for.the Company, their ability, and also such machinery that will co~ord~nate between the contractor and this Council. It!a sim~le." Mayor Dletz: "~nything else Mr! Talbot?. Mr. ~very?" Mr. Avery: "It is perfectly obvious that they made a mistake. They admit it, we admit it, and we know that we want brick'manholes." Mayor Dietz: "Delray admits what?" Mr. Avery: "They made a mistake and we admit they did." Mr. Talbot: "Mr. Mayor, would it be out 'of order to move the meeting along by moving'the contract~rs~replace the manholes~ Mayor Deitz: "Mr. Talbot, that h~s already been done.' Tnxs Council voted that. They sent an official notification to Russell& Akon of th~ action of the CounciI'and'Russell & Axon has not as ytt taken any action o~'the letter tha~ was submit%ed. They have~b~en properly.~ notified an~the notification is clear-and It says that there will be brick manholes. Can we produce that letter, Mr. Worthing?" Mr. Worthing: "Your Honor, in addition to producing that letter, I would like to state that, however, getting back to ~he meeting of the Council on August 12th. and et your direction'the following letter was submitted to Russell & Axon." City Clerk Worthing then read the following lette%dated August 19th, 1963. "Kindly be advised that the City Council, of the City of De,_ray Beach, Florida, while in regular session on Monday, August 12th, unanimously denied the'proposed ~Change Orderl affecting the "Contract" with Barbarossa & Sons, Inc., relative, to the con- struction of MANHOLES in conjunction with the sewage works pro- Ject in Delray Beach and directed that any Manholes,-constructed to date, which do not comply with the Specifications set-forth and contained in the 'Bid~ and ultimate "Contract", be replaced with Manholes in striotcompli~nce with such specifications.. You are hereby further advised that all future construction of Manholes, unless otherwise directed~by the City Council, be in accordance with such specifications." Mr. Worthing: "That letter has been acknowledged under date of August 23rd by Mr. Steinhilperl I believe that the followin~ people received , letter in today's ~ail aS I did." Mayor Dietz: "Would you read that letter." City Clerk Worthing then read the following letter d~ted August 23rd from Russell & Axon in D~ytona Beach, concerning Sanitary Sewer Manholes Sewage Works Project No. 5964-8a, to Barbarossa & SonS, Inc. "Subject: Sanitary Sewer Manholes sewage Works Project No. 5964-8a De!ray Beach, Florida The attached letter from the City of Delray Beabh d~ted' 19 ' August 1963, is forwarded for your information and appropriate action. "The men_holes in question'have been-located off the Delray Beach Key Map. ¥~u are hereby advised that these manholes will be removed .and replaced. If there is any question on the above, please advise." Mr. Worthing: "Copies of this letter were forwarded to the Honorable Mayor, City Manager, City Attorney, Mr. George Switzer and ~self." Mr. Russell: "May I bring up one'point Which is in regards to that letter?" Mayor Dietz: "Yes, but the question has been asked by Mr. Talbot as to whether they should be notified. We have Just produced the evidence that they were notified. We produced the evidence that they received that letter and consequently there is no further notifi- cation required. It requires action On the part of Russell & Axon." Mr. Russell; "We have taken the action. I was pointing out that we have taken the action. There have been no further concrete man- holes put in since the time of our notification by the City that they would not accept them. They have been brick manholes since that time. After receipt of the notification of the action of the City and our notification that they would remove these manholes the contPactor has offered the'following, not in'writing I dontt believe, not in letter." . Mayor Dietz: "Dontt give us anything unless it is in writing because it will not be granted." Mr. Russell: "We w'ill obtainlthis in writing but we'have an in- struction to the contrary and we .... I dontt want any'action on it. I Just want to bring it up and determine whether you want.to bother with a.letter." Mayor Dietz: "We Want bur regular brick manholes in"accord~nce with the correspondence that has been sent to you and has been ac- knowledged and there ~ill be no deviatioh frbm that." - Mr. Russell: "We have taken appropriate action on that to advise the contractor to remove them. Thatts right. Again, I will bring up the one, point and we have no interest in this either way. A recom- mendation on this is purely a matter of money. The contractor has offered to give these manholes in the ground to the City for nothing as opposed to paying ~6,000.00 for the other manholes." Mayor Dietz: "Not acceptable. They are going to be in accordance with the specifications. Have you gentlemen any further questions, for I have quite a few here." Mr. Russell: "We have no recommendations on it." Mayer Deitz~ "I Just wanted to wait and allow you gentlemen to present your items. I would like to go back to the letter of July 9th. I would like to have that letter read. That is the. letter that Russell & Axon, and correct me if I~mwrong gentlemen, is letter in which Russell & Axon asked permission for poured-in-place manholes.' Is that right, July 9th? Maybe Mr. Worthing could read it. And also get the Brlggs preoast letter and,: the blueprints that were sent in to you by Barbarossa for precast manholes while you are getting correspondence." '- Mr. Worth,rig: ~"Yo~r Hon~r, the letter"that-I referred to was Written in Daytona Be~ch, dated July 9th ~nd w~s as follows: "Subject: Pro,eot No. 5964-8a Sewage Work Project Delray Beach, Florida Enclosed are six copies of Change Order N~. 1 covering sub- stitution of precast manholes-for brick manholes. -~Three copies are~for your files and information and the others are to be returned to the Inspector, Mr. George Switzer for distribution." Mayor Dietz: "Do you wish to explain that letter George? It talks of manholes, and would you like to see the letter to be sure that it's your letter." Mr. Russell: "The change order which it contains: 'Whereas, the party of the first part has been requested to amend the ContraCt by deleting specified brick manholes and adding precast manhole'base~ with cast-in-place manholes at a savings to'~the City bf Delray Beach, Florida.' and it lists the prices and indicates the savings in money." -10- 8/29/63 Mayor. Dietz: "Now, that is the letter dated when?" Mr. Russell~ "'July 9th." ' Mayor Dietz: "And that is, if I und~rstand-y0u correctly, 'that is the letter asking the City of Delray Beach to allow a different type of manhole?'' " ' .... Mr. ~u~se11= "A different type of manhole bases snd ~anholes. Ther~ is ~ letter pr'~ceding this one,'by a week Or ten days'~" " -Mayo~ Dietz.~ "What Would be the date of that letter? Can we have that read, Please." Mr. Russell: "Do ~ou have it Mr. Worthing?" Mr. Worthing: "What did the letter have reference tO?" Mr. Russell: "what it boiled down to is requesting authority to prepare a change order." Mayor Deitz: "'You would say that the letter you have reference to and we cannot at the moment produce was about a week~prior to the letter of July 9th and it requests the p'ermission to make manholes different from specifications. Does it ask for a specific type of manhole?" Mr. Russell: "I presume the same type of manhole is covered by that change order." Mayor Dietz: "This is very im~ortant.J. Could Russell ~ Axon get their files, please? Back to the point, Mr. Woodard was asking cer- tain questions about 'the sewer that has already been laid in place. You used the word insPection and you used the term, where'you put a light in it, lamping lnspeotion. I wouId now like to ask you this question'. Have any tests specified in your specifications been made on any part of the sewers that have been laid to date? We have here evidence tonight of one force main, which was'' about a block long, and today we tested the outfall, but' to the best of my knowledge' there has been no other tests made in accordance with the specifications, and the specifications are very explicit on ~h~ tests. They ~ell you how much leakag~ it can h~ve and how much leakage it cannBt h~ve. None ~f th~se have be~n made. ~uestioh. We h~d better have ~ re- cess ,nd wait until Jack get~ back because I can,t take item after item if ........ " Mr. Russell:' "I think, partly, I ~an ...... I thought that I made myself clear when I answered Mr. Woodard." Mayor Dietz: "You made yourself clear, but'l am bri~gin~ up the distinction between the inspection and tests, and t.hey are as differ- ent as day is from n~ght." Mr. Russell: "~gain I-'thought I made'myself clear on that ~oin~. I said this .... That visual inspection, as yo~ poin~ ou~, is ma~e at the time of the larruping and checking of line ~nd ~rade and compaction. A~ this t~me if there is visible evidence"of any amount of' excess in water, in the" opinion of the inspecting party, then tests are run. I am ta]/~ing,,about exfiltration and infiltration tests. In the event that ....... Mayor Dietz: "In exfiltration you wouldn,t have any water, it,s only in the infiltration." Mr. Russell: "But you make the tests if you have an excess of infiltration. If you do not, you .allow the line as 10ng as possible for any faults to appear and make the tests as near the end of the Job as possible." Mayor' Dietz: "For the purpose of the audience. What we are talking about is a medium that they have for telling whether the pipe is laid in a straight line, and whether it is laid in a proper slope. They put a light on it an~ if t~i.~ight become~ elliptical one way or elliptical the' other way it ~S there is"a bend. If it is round it shoWs that' the pipe is straight. That is the inspection that he is' talking about. I think a ~few of ~he lines'you ~id' flush out to clear out some sand. Again,-I come back and say that about fifty percent of the sewer is in place now, is it not? 0r close to th a t ?" Wm. Russell: "~bout thirty percent." Mayor Dietz: "~bout thirty percent of the s~wers ih place and yet not one test has been made ,nd the specifications are very spe- cific on the tests." Mr. Russellf "May I say this. I thought I Pointed out that it would be not Standar~ engineering practice to make the tests at this time unless an unusual or a poor quality condition was observed in the line itself." '- Mayor Dietz: "L~t me take that one step further if you will, George. Granted that if you have the fXnest workers and th~ finest company and the finest everything, you are still going to have some -11- 0/~9/63 cracks. Now, if when we get all done with this system we would apply the tests as set forth in the specifications, we would have to tear up between manholes in every place where the~leakage was beyond your specifications. Is that correct?" M~. Russell: "That is correct, sir. If we have a large percent- age of that." ~' May~r Dletz: "That would mean that if you did have there would be a long period of tearing up after the~lin~ is.. accepted. "Now, I watched the line down on Dixie Boulevard and that is a main trunk line, and I happened to see a big hole being dug there and ther'e WaSh't-'any Russell & Axon man there, but you wouldntt e~pect that. THey canft b~ all over at the same time. So I ~m not saying that by way of cormplaint, but the m, chine, neve~theless, did get' the main' as they were'digging and it did lift the' main a little bit and th~ maih dropped back. They were looking for a "Y". Now, Switzer if"familiar withthis,, and'they were'looking ~or the "Y" where the "Y" wasnlt. So they immediately got a hammer and , chisel and they cut through this big pipe and put on what they told me was a s,ddle something, but m~ point is, if we ,re going to lay these trunk lines ~nd disturb them and then not test the, wh~t kind of a system -~,--- how much digging up might' we put the ~ommunity to when there are prescribed tests? I Just wanted to clear up this inspection versus t~sts. If the test is done it will be done, of course, every test that is specified will be done one hundred percent. But there is a difference between inspection and te~ts, and tests are the ones. that count. Now, this letter of July 9th was read and you Said there was a letter pre- ceding that." Mr. Russell: "May I go on, on this point we have been taiking about. I am 'not trying to avoid --- we will go back to that. I don't know if everyone if familiar with what the tests are. The tests ~mount to measurement of the infiltration, which is the amount of the Water flowing through.the pipe, before there' are any connec- tions made to the pipe. It amounts to putting a measuring device in the ~ipe and measuring the quantity of flow in the pipe. This is the test for a gravity s~wer pipe." · Mayor Dietz: "That is .one of the t~sts. Then up in the Northeast section Of town where we do not have water in the ~round, you will t~st it, 9ill you not, according to your sp~cification~ by putting water in and blocking up. between manholes, takihg the water at, you don't ~uite specify to.~he top of the manhole, and then see how it hold~ ~nd the amount that it goes down over a period of time is the leakage." Mr. Russell: "De~ending upon the soil ~onditions. ThatWs correct. Now, a Visual observation of th~ flow of w~t~r, I will go b~ck to the infiltration, will, if ~here is ~n ~nsignifibant amount of water in the pipe, will indicate that if you measured that flow it would ~ot b~ in excess of the amount spebifie~. For this reason we presume ~t that point that the line is satisfactory, however, we give it time to age and go back and be sure that something hasn't happened in the interim period during which this line hasnot been fully accepted, so that the City is protected for the m~ximum length of time possible under the contract. Now, if you wish us ~$oi~%est these lines,' line by line, in our Judgment this would be not normal engineering standards nor particularly good engineering standards. We feel tha~ the City is best protected by the methods used now.in that they have the longest period of protection possibles" Mayor Dietz: "I am not here this evening to tell Russell & ~xon anything~ I am Just here to ask questions. But, I will call ~tten- tion to the audience that you'can see how perfect the specifications have been, because they have met every condition of tests and in those specifications, which are good specificatiohs, there are good methods of tests, and I want to assure everybody that thos~ tests will be used before the final ~ayment on this sewer is mad~ on any section." Mr. Russell: 'They will be done at the s~andard engineering time. Nbw, to go back to this other letter, if Lmay. THis ~s a letter dated the 24~h of June, 1963, and it says as follows, addressed to the City Manager." Mr. Russell re~d said letter as follows: -12J .8/29/63 "323 "~u~Je~t: Poured in Place Manholes " Sewage Works ProJect-'No. 5964-8~~ Delray Beach, Florida · The attached letter from BarSar°s~a and SOns, Inc.['req~sts approval to use poured-in-place ~anholes wish precast bases. A savings of $1.25 per foot of hanhole height is .offer6d in the event this type of manhole and base is approved. In addition, these manholes' will have an exterior pro~ective coating equal to Prooostandard Thiotc Black Asphalt Coating. Upon approval of this type manhole and base, a Change Order will be prepared and presented to the City for Commission approval." Mr. RUssell: "We went ahead. We presupposed and made up the change order, and as I have stated earlier ...... --" Mayor Dietz: "The change order w~ da~ed July 9th. Right?" Mr. RUssell: "The 9th of July. Yes. These were not precast. They were precast bases and cast-in-place manholes." Mayor Dietz~ "Now when I returned which was' July 7th, and I, Clifford will'remember, I calledup Daytona because I was disturbed when I saw concrete bases laying around and concrete prefabs laying around, a~that was July 7th. The following Monday' we' started again building ~anholes. That, I think you. will find, is a matter of re- cord. Would you say I am correct in that Mr. Steinhilper or Mm. Switzer?" Someone answered: "I don~t recall the date." M,yo~ Dietz~ "When do you think you stopped using PreCast bases? I~ll change the question. "When did ybu stop usin~ them?" Mr. Russell: "You'll have to go back to the daily log for that, wouldn't you?" Mayor Di~tz: "Have you ~ot your daily logs here?" Mr. Woodard: "In the meantime we might find out when they started using these." Mr. Russell: "I would presume on or abbut the 28th or 29th of June, Mr. Steinhilper is guessing, understand that now, that they were"started." '- ' Maybr'Dietz: "I Itnow you were putting them in when I ~alle~ Daytona'and gbt you"'an50steen and Cliffor~.~on:the phone at that time. That was on a Saturday morning, You were putting them in then or I wouldn't have called." Mr. Russell: "I imagine they were put in the last week In Uune and ~he ~irst week .... pardon me ..... the first week and a half to two and a half weeks in July.. That is Just my guess and it is only a personal guess." Mayor Dietz: "I was going to come tO that now." Mr. Russell: ."The day that you met and tabled the matter, on man- holes. The Commission met and tabled." Mayor Dietz: "Yes, that was'July 12th, was :it not?" Mr. Russell: "That is the day, sir. August 12th ~as. the action." Mayor Dietz: "No, it' was th~ meeting following that-I b~l~eve. The m~et~ng following that, because we couldn't work that fast. July 8th was a Council meeting and July 22nd. It must have been the 22nd of JulY." ' Mr. R~ssell: "Th~ da~ that the ~eeting was hel~ on which the matteb was tabled, wes the day it was stopped~ because it had not been-'approved." Mayor Dietz: "No~, ther~ were some.slxty;four hanholes that were built in SeCtions I ~nd-'II arid everything that I say pertains onl~ to Sections I and II, Barbarossa. There were,"I think, sixty-four man- holes constructed up to the end of June. Can you verify that from your records~" ..... MrS' Russell: ".The estimates you saw. Mayor, were recommendations for payments." - Mr. Woo~ard: "It seems to me that'I reo~ll a letter even prior to the one that we have'referred to so far. Was not the first"le~ter received requesting a change' order one which did not offer a saving to the City of whatever the' amount was? I'believe the first letter r~quested a change order that offered no saving, and I think that was followed by a second letter, I don~t recall the date, which offered a nominal saving of some sort." -13- 8/29/63 N~. Russell: "Es I say, we ~idntt research, we w~ren~t asked-'to research, I might add. ~ There have been one hundred an~ eleven man- holes built an8 r'ecommended for payment. One hundred and eleven brick manholes that "At what time?" Mayor Dietz: "At AugUst 20~." " Mr. Russell: Mayor DietZ: "But that is.all sections. Right? Sections I and II." MB. Russell: ~"Sections I ~nd II. One hundred and eleven. That woul~ be brick manholes." Mayor Dietz: "That was August what? August' 20th, that will giVe us the curve. Now, .I think the information I have is fairly accurate, and.my information is that there wer~ sixty-four manholes completed by the end of June. If sixty-four manholes were completed by the end of June and we"have thirty of those that were not within specifica- tions, then that process must have started prior to your letter of June 24th. "' Someone answered: "No." Mayor Dietz: "Well, then why would you slow down and spurt up. It' s a' constant performance here." Mr. Russell: "He says that t~e contractor had a problem getting proper manhole crews in here to get his manholes started. ~.nd that was the original reason why he wanted to go to concrete manholes'." Mayor Dietz: "Then it would be even more so, wouldn~t it~ What I am trying to show is .that there was, at one time,, fifty percent of the manholes in Sections I 'and' II that were constructed up to the end of ~une were not in accordance with contract Specifications, and some went in prior to the time the ~hange order was. submitted to the City." ~ir. Russell: "Sir, again, the manholes"---- one' of the reasons for the request for a'change to concrete manholes was the fact that he didntt hav~ crews and therefore, the brick manholes were going too slow and'he wanted to put the concrete manholes"in so he could speed up his manhole p~oduction. "He did speed it up and therefore he pdt in some thirty manholes in , very sho~t period, whePe,s, if original ...... ~ ~e will presume your figures ~re correct as we don~t have this d~ta .... the o~iginal thirty-four in a much longer period. This' is not too unusu~.l I might ~dd'- .... " Mayor Die, z: "Mr. SSeinhilper c~n heIp you with those figures because he' had tb get them out' when We made the t%st f~r bas~s. While you are searching for that, bear in mind that what we sro 15ok- ing for now, what I may be wrong in, but I believe the 'concrete man- holes went in prior to the request. But I will wait until I get further information, and I now want to refer to your letter of August 5th. A four page letter signed by Mr.. Steinhilper." Mr. Russell: "Excuse me sir, for this point. The 24th of June there were seventeen brick manholes installed." Mr. Woodard: "This~ is in Sections I and II. The total number of manholes that had been installed?" Someone answered: "There was none installed in Section I. There were seventeen installed in Section II." Mayor Dietz: 'rAnd then the folloWing week." Mr. Russell: ~"We only have a monthly complete record, on the 5th of July there were twenty'four brick manholes installed plus the thirty concrete. There were seveh more brick put in in the month of July, and of course, the thirty manhol~s~ under discussion." Mayor Dietz: "'On .July 25th there was a total of how many brick manholes? Twenty-four, and' thirty of the concrete. In other words, there were thirty concrete and' twenty-four Brick-on the 25th of July. That illustrates my point. That is ~ust what I am Saying. You have ~got con~rete manholes in there prior to the time that the authoriz- ation was requested." Mr. Russell: "No. What it demonstrates is quite graphically that he stopped on the brick end COuld put the concrete manholes in much faster, because it is formed, put~ placed, that's it. They go much f~ster." ' ' "Al~ight, .I won~t labor that any further." Mayor 'Dietz: "In Mr. Russell: other words, there was approximately, between the 24th of June and the 25th of July there were 31 days, four Weeks and three days of that peri'Od, as we have discussed earlier, approx- imately 'three weeks of that .period were consumed in putting brick manholes in, I mean concrete.. We put approximately thirty manholes in in three weeks, of concrete, and put seven in in ~bout a week and 325 a half, of brick." Mayor Dietz: "Now in this 'change order the' City was offered three percent saving, in the suggested change orders. Now I am going to read isolated sentences from the letter of 'Russell & Axon, ..... " Mr. Russell: "Could you advise me where they are so I- can follow them." Mayor Dietz: "Yes sir. ~ugust 5th and it would be page~, well you don~t number your pages, it would be the next to the last page. ~We have never considered precast manholes for Use on this Job. precast ~anhole is by testimony here tonight, any one that is not p oured-in,plac e." Mr. IRU~Sell: "Sir. That is not our nomenclature." Mayor Dietz: "A precast .... the paragraph ahead of that: ~Nan- holes that have been pre-cast in an assembly yard and h~led to the site are much ~heaper.' Well, if they are precast in an'assembly yard and ,re hauled and are cheaper, wouldn't' you think that if they are precast in the lot that they would be cheaper." Mr. Russell': "No sir. An assembly line process ih, I~m ~sure you ~re familiar with the fact that th?y are much che~per than in- dividu~l Production method." Mayor Dietz: "The casting of the manhole section on the ~op of the trench at the manhole' site was not authorized. This ~ a very pertinent point here. I am going to read this slowly. Change 'Order Mr. Russell.' e es are numbered." Mayor Dietz: "Touche. ~change Order No. 1 to the Barbarossa ~nd Sons, Inc., was transmitted to the' City under letter of transmittal dated the 9th of July, 1963. This Change was discussed and concur- rence was expressed. ~ Now let me reread that. ~This Change was dis- cussed and concurrence was expressed.~ I would like to ask where was this change discussed." Mr. Russell: "Since this' is not an expression of fact ....... " Mayor Dietz: "It is an'essential fact." Mr. Russell: "I said ~an expression of fact~ an expression of something that happened I would rather Mr~ Steinhilper answered." Mr. Steinhilper: "This Change was submitted on July 9th. The letter that Mr. Russell read earlier was discussed in the City Man- ager ~s office." Mayor Dietz: "In the City Manager's' office?~ In Daytona Beach?" Mr. 8teinhilper: "'In Delray Beach." Mayor Dietz: "In the City Manager's Office 'in Delrsy Beach. Now, what was discussed there, Change Order No.-17" Mr. Steinhtlper: "What w~s discussed w~s the merits and ,dvisability of putting in cash-in'pi'ace marah~les with precast bases." M, yor Dietz: "This ~hang~, the change 'is a discussion of precast bases with poured-in-place manholes." Mr. ~teinhilper: "This is c°rrect.'' Mayor Dietz: '"Did you have specifications ~nd design present when you discussed that?" Mr. Steinhilper: "I had a drawing from the Briggs ComPany, sir." Mayor Dietz: "Would you get t~hat blueprint, please? Manhole com- pany drawings." Mr. Steinhilper: "This is correct, sir." Mayor Dietz: "That would be then a drawing of a precast manhole made by the precast Briggs Company." ' ' Mr. Steinhilper: "That is right, but there wes an exception made. The reason this drawing was submitted is it showed the manner in which the manhole was to be constructed and the thicknesses of the base and the walls." Mayor Dietz~ "In other words, you were operating from a drawing of a precast manhole company showing a precast manhole and it was on that basis you discussed this change in the City Manager,s office?" Mr. Steinhilper: "Yes, sir." Mayor Dietz: "Now it says 'and concurrence was expressed.~W~at does that mean? Concurrence was expressed, Let Mr. Steinhilper answer that, please. He was there?' Mr. Steinhilper; "Concurrence was expressed means Just exactly what it says.'' Mayor Dletz: "It says that ..... concurrence to me means a meeting of minds, an agreement,m Mr. Steinhilper: "That is my opinion" of what concurrence means." Mayor Dietz: "Now if , concurrence was expressed, .by whom was this concurrence expressed?" Mr. Steinhilper: "Sir, since I have, ...... " Mayor Dietz: "Would you please answer the question. You are-not in court~ I know that, but that is n~ither hex~nor there. You ha~e written an official letter and'y&u Say cbncurrence was ex~ressed and I as Mayor of the City of Delray Beach want to know who gave con- currence$'t ~. Steinhilper: "Two people." Mayor Dietz: "Alright, what Were their names?" Mr. Steinhilper: "The City Manager Mr. Robert Hol£ane, the City Engineer who said at a later meeting, expressed his approval of a concrete manhole." Mr. Russell: "May I point out that the concurrence Was expressed that our engineering opinion~ as expressed earlier, that cast-in- place manholes were equal to or better in quality than brick manholes, That~our engineering opinion was correct in that we shoul~ submit a request for a change order. We were not advised to tell the contrac- tor to proceed with installation of these manholes. This was done on our own responsibility and was in error." Mayor Dietz: "Yes. This was on July 9th. But, according to your testimony we had thirty concrete manholes in place by the 25th of July and here we are ...... " Mr. Steinhilper:~ "These manholes that we have said are completed are brick manhbles and these thirty in question, these thirty we are talking about are in addition." Mr. RusseIl: "In other words, we discussed a letter at Which ~e requested that we be permitted to submit for ~ request for approval of a change order.'~'Our engineering opinion was, shall we say, held up by the individual there, so we on our own responsibility, we have not evaded the responsibility for the error, phior to'~submitting the requested -~- the Change Order which the contra6tor had requested,'~ went ahead and told the contractor to put the manholes in. Thi~ was an error in Judgment on the part of Mr. Steinhilper. We then~~ after the fact which should not have been, submitted'a request.for a~Change Order. It was turned down, or rather it was tabled, on the day was tabled we ceased the installation of the cast-in-place or prec~st or concrete, .shall we say, manholes." Mayor Dietz: "Mr. Steinhilper, would it be a normal thing for me to ask this question: That since you had concurrence from the City from two people, as you say, I am asking you to search your mind care- fully if there weren't some others there, that gave you the thought that you 2ould tell them to go ahead with cast manholes." Mr. Steinhilper: "Thetts like, do you beat your wife, or when did you stop. It can't be yes or no." Mr. Barrow: "May I ask a question. We keep talking about cast-in- place manholes which I don~t think anybody has questioned. They might be equal, but we still have twenty-five precast manholes which Mr. Steinhilper and nobody else has agreed that they will O.K. I still want to know why we got the twenty-five precast manholes in there 0 K" that nobody has a~reed that they will . . Mr. Russell: "Bec~us~ our inspectors made a mistake. They let them put something in that we had not agreed to, that we did not rec- ommend in this Change Order, we recommended something entirely dif- ferent.'' Mayor Dietz: "Who would your inspectors come under? WhOwould your inspectors report to?" Mr. Russell: "To Mr. Switzer who is ~nder Mr. Steinhilper." Mayor Dietz: "I see. Now,' could we ask Mr. Switzer why his in- spectors under his direction-a'llow~d these things Mr. Russell: "They made ~ mistake, but if he wants to say any- thing else I ......." Mayor Dietz: "I want .... I am going to labor the p~int if it takes until midnight. Something has gone wrong and I w~nt to find out what is wrong. You have admitted it's wrong but that is not enough~ I want to know why." Mr. Barrow: "That's what I want to know.'''' Mr. Steinhilper: "If you add two and two and come up with five---" Mayor Dietz: "That is what you did, didn't you? But, I think it ought to be four." Mr, Steinhilper: "You still can't change it after ..... " Mayor Dietz: ,'Could Mr. Switzer please answer the question since the inspectors come under him, how could thirty manholes be put in place which were not put in in one day according to testimony here, they were not put in in one day, consequently, what were the in- spectors doing?" '827 Mr. Switzer: "The Precast manhole's were put in place, allowed to be put in because I misinterpreted the purpose of the drawing that we have here." Mayor Dietz: "And who gave you that drawing?'' Mr. Switzer: "It came from Mr. steinhilpe~." Mayer Dietz: "~nd that was the drawing that you discussed at the City Managerts office?"' Mr. steinhilper: '"That was." - Mayor Dietz: '"In other words, let the records shbw that the.' drawing was a drawing of a precast'manhole, made by a company that builds prec,st manholes and was discussed with the City, Manager and the City Engineer and there waS's concurrence of -----,' N Mr. Russell: "A detail which we intended to use on a cast-in- plac~ Jab." 'Mayor Dietz: "But you wouldn,t, on this type of Job, use shop drawings. You would use specifications fro~ Russell &'Axon with de- sign. With the very nice-design that'you ge. ye us and all ~f .the"spec- ifications, it is beyond anybody's reason to b~liev~ that a c~mpany like Russell & Axon would allow , poured-in-place manhole' without the proper specifications and design." ' - Mr. Russell: "That's correct, sir, Had the Change Order been approved or had questions been asked at the time of the Chah~ Order, or approval been g~ven by the Commission, we would have ~repared Said plans or detail plans and specifications for the installation of these." Mayor Dietz: "Now, if you had prepared those, then how would you match them up with what was poured-in-place, where one section was laid on top of the other and there is nothing to hold them in place?" Mr. Russell: "Sir, Mr. Switzer has already said that he misin- terpreted M~. Steinhilper~s instructions, Mr. Steinhilper has al- ready said that he gave his instructions prior to when he had any authorization to do so." Mayor ~ietz: "Would y~u want to search your memory and s~e if this meeting was not in the Council room.' Ar~ you Sure it was in the City Manaser~s office? It couldn't have b~en in that Council Room neet to the City Manager's Office? And that there couldn't have been more than the' three' of you present? Could you Just Search your memory a moment?" Mr. Steinhilper: "I regard the two offices together as the City Manager's Office." ' 'Mayor Dietz: "I'-see. You were in the CounCil"room. Then please, search your memory as to the number Of people. Was it five?" Mr. Steinhilper: "I don~t recall, Sir~" ~ Mayoh Dietz: "Let the records show that Mr. Steinhilper doeSnt~ 'recall an imp~rt,nt meeting in which he got a concurrence of----was expressed on a vital change in the sewer '~ystem in Delray Be~ch," Mr. Russell: "SIP, I would p~esume that he would not regard this, maybe incorrectly in your mind,'as a vital meeting since th~ action of the Commission was to come later, which is th~ official action bf the City and since we felt we were buying an equal product at a more reasonable price." -' Mayor Dietz: "Again let me sa~ this.' Suppose forgone moment that the City Council had not gone into this and they had approved~ the Change Order in good faith, then we would have had a lot of manholes out there that would not be acceptable and nothing would be done. Is that right?" Mr. Russell: "No, sir." Mayor Dietz: "How would we have caught it?" Mr. Russell: "The precast manhole would have been caught by ¥~. Steinhilper on his inspection, not Mr. Switzer who had misinterpreted the instruction, which is made at least'prior to the monthly esti- mates' but I mean at least that." Mayor DietZ: "I am Satisfied in my own mind that I see what has happened and Z ~hink that in fairness there that Russell & Axon may have felt that a concurrence was expressed and cohsequently they were pretty sure of getting an ~pproval of this later, and conse- quently they beat the gun. ~ould that be fair?" Mr. Steinhilper: "Tha~s An expression. Yes, sir~" Mayor"Dietz: ~ "DOes that satisfy you, E~ory?" Mr. Barrow:. "I don~t see .what else I can lock"for. The bnly bhing I want to know is how to prevent these mistakes from happening again." ~' ~ -Mr. RusSell: "I might ~y you wouldn,t be any more interested in that than I would be, sir. -17- 8/~9/~3 328 ~Mayor Dietz:~ "I think I can offeh ~ very definite solution that that will not happen on'this system,gain. Mr. Talbot, are you satisfied? Now .... Mr. Avery?" Mr. Avery: "Yes~ sir," ." Mayor Dietz: "Have you been answered, Mr. Woodard?" Mr. Woodard: "Yes, for cUrrent.'' · Mayor Dietz: "Z have some other things here but they are minor, because I thinl: the point has been proved there. The Council has officially notified you that those .thLrty manholes are to b~ removed." Mr. Russell: "And we have officially notified.the contractor identically." Mayor Dietz: ~'To so do. Now, in closing we have other things here, but I want to ask you Just one question, if I may. I said that I had a solution that this should not reoccur, and if the audience will please take notice that I have not expressed myself critically ..~ of Russell & Axon· I have asked questions based on facts and those questions have bothered me. Those questions have been answered. Now, I said I had a solution and-that solution will bring into the picture a Mr. Neff. I want to ask you right here, have you any objection to "Mr. Daniel Neff?" ~. Russell: !'I have met Mr. Daniel Neff once or so. I have no objection to Mr. Neff personally. I don~t know him personally at all." Mayor Dietz: "In other words, you would h~ve no'obJectibn." Mr.' Russell: "I,have no objection to him as an individual and I might add that I have been advised by Mr. Steinhilper that he per- sonally feels very definitely no Objections to Nm. Neff. Will you correct me~" Mr. Steinhilper: "This is correct." M~yor Dietz: "Would ybu Just switch that arc,nd, Mr. Steinhilper? Mr. Steinhilpe~,ha~e you ~ny objections to Mr. Daniel Neff?" Mr. Steinhilper. "I have none. I will be very pleased to work with-him.,~ Mayor Dletz~ "Thank you. ~nytHing else on manholes? Now, we spOke of the ~atter of insurance, and Counselor, you ~an lead off on that. This has to do with Russell~& Axon. Incidentally, prec~st manholes are fifty percent Iess than bric~"~manh~les.'' ~' Mr. Russell: "Sir, we have had Jobs that we couldn~t get that price on th~m, on bidding them, sir." · II Mayor Dletz. You c~n see why I was disturbed 'about the three percent· This is unfortunate that it has had to come'up now~ but nevertheless, Russell & Axon have a contract with us and I want ~o read from the Contract, Paragraph 2. ~That it is also agreed that the ENGINEERS shall carry insurance to cover errors and omi~si&ns. in the ~mount of $500,000 per annum with a $5,000.~00 deductible clause. It is recited as a matter .of information that the ENGINEERS .p~esently are insured in this respect With Continental Casualty Com- pany' in the amount of $150,000. The OWNER ~grees to pay the ENGI- NEERS the amount of premium increase necessary to inbre~se said in- surance from $150~000~to $500,000 with Continents1 Casualty Company. It is recited as a ~atter of information that the inchease on a year- ly basis is an~icipate~ to amount to slightly less than .~3,500~,00. The ENGINEERS agree to not~fy ~the 0WNE~ a~ least thirty (30).days prior to any premium ihcrea§e where ~aid amount will exceed $3,500.00, at which time 0WNE~'shall hav~ the option to instruc% the ENGINEERS to reduce its insurance coverage in"this r~spect to a lower policy limit. A ~ertlfi~ate of ~uch~'insurance shall be filed w~th ~he OWNER. Such insurance'sh~ll contain an endorsement providin~ that c~ncell~- tion thereof m~y be effected only u~on thirty (30)'~day~~ written notice to the OWNER, Bnd such insurance shall contain a d~scov~ry period of not less than five (5) years. ~'Th~ ENGINEERS shall ra~i~tain such insurance in full force and effect a~ all ~imes until the date of completion of Projebt ~5964-8 (a) ahd acceptance'by the Ok~ER. It is the intent of the parties hereto that the aforesaid insurance sh~ll apply to all services of the ~ENGINEERS, including-'design, consulting services and resident 'insp~ction.~ Now, the company sent us ~· cer- tificate but it does not match up with the contract requirements. The Counselor will take it up from there," City Attorney ~dams: "I think by way of background here· AUgust 12th was the date ~ the letter from ~ Wenger, the President of Russell & Axon,. was received by the~City. A~t that time I looked through the policy, compared the contract and if the things were covered it wasn't apparentA I then referred the letter to Beery and 829 Brown the supervising agents for the City and I believe it might be helpful if M~. Worthing would read the letter that Mr. Brown wrote me in reply~" Mr. Warthing: "I would like to preface that, if I may, .with the fact that~in 0ouncil meeting, I believe it was May 27th,'~en the in- surance was authorized ko be increased,~ a fe~ days later, ~rly in June'I re~ived the insurance coverage .from Continental CaSualty Com- pany, t0ok'it up with the City Attorney, we in tuPh ~ub~ted 'it' to ' Council and the City Attorney. cited to y~u gentlemen th~ f~cttha~i~ was short certain items that you desired for coverage. YoU authorized the City Administration to so advise Russell & Axon which was d6ne under date of J~ns 28th." Mr. Worthing then read s,id letter dated June 28th, 1963 to Russell & Axon as follows~ "Am attaching here%o a'co~y of the'Memorandum of Insurance from.the Continental Ca~u,lt~ Company covering the Arohitect~s & Englneers~ Professional Liability. There ,ppear to be some omissions and I believe you will want to provide for their inclusion therein. Kindly check items underlined' on Page 6 of'Council Meeting Minu~es, dated May ~7th, 1963, and let me hear from you ~t your e,rly con- venience.,, Mr. Worthing then read the reply from Russell & Axon, dated July 2, and signed by Mr. George Russell as follows: "With regard to your letter of June 28, 1963 concerning the Architects! and Engineers~ Professional Liability, the Memo- randum of Insurance should indicate the items mentioned in the action of the Council. However, it does not and, for this reason, we will advise the Continental Casualty Com- pany of the specific requirements and obtain an actual copy of the policy. . We are attempting, as you know, to meet all the requirements to the letter. If the insurance company does not give s~tis- factory evidence within thirty days,, please advise. City Clerk Worthing: "Following that, ~he let.tar tO'which Mr. Adams Just referred,-a letter ca~e from Russell & Axon dated August 12th enclosing insurance policy and Other matters. Mr.'Brown, of Beery and Broom, wrote the following letter received tod,y, AuguSt 28th." City Clerk Worthing then read s~id letter from Mr. H~rvey L. Brown, to City Attorney ~%dams, d,ted August 28th, as.follows: "In accordance with your'recent request for ~n analysis'of ~he insurance situation pert,ining, to the City of' De.lr~y Be,ch and the firm of Russell & Axon,'I would like to mak~ the following observations." These observations are based on a~ study, of Con- tinental Casualty Company policy ~RDE 973008, issued to Russell & Axon to cover Architects ,nd Engineers Professional Liability. 1. MY first ~ecommendation is that we obtain a memorandum copy of the insurance policy or a better photocopy of same since the present copy is not as legible as would be desired for an accurate study. The City should re= quest.a "certified true copy" of the policy. 2. It appears from mY study that there is no five year discovery period in the policy as contractedfor by the City. A long distance telephone conversation with Continental Casualty Company has confirmed my opinion on this matter. 3.Two very undesirable features are present in this policy and operate concurrently, (,) Claims will have.to occur during the policy period. (b) Claims for d~mage must be made during policy period. "The ramification of these conditions ~re Apparent. 4. The City .of D~lray Beach a's of May '29, 1963 through S~p- tember 25, 1963, the expiration of this policy, h~s paid $1,134.20 to increase Russell & Axons limit of liability of this policy from $150,000. to $%00,000. Unfortunately, the City of Delray Beach is paying a premium for this in- · Creased coverage for all work done by RusSell & Axon on all of their contracts for this period, not Just the work done for the City. ' I am certain thi~ is not the intent of the City and if it is, it is a very dubious practice. The annual cost of ~his increased coverage in Xts present form would be approximate~y $3,500. a considerable waste of a sizeable amount of money. 5. It is obvious that Russell & Axon have not provided the City with the type of coverage that the City ha~ requested according to the information you have given ~e and I feel that there is n'o JuStification for the City paying the amount of premium called for by the Russell & Axon policy. The City should either get satisfactory endorsements show- ing tho"coverages are effective ,S requested or the City should arrange these cover,ges themselves if possXble. As Supervising agents for the City~sinsur~nce, we h~ve initi- ,ted inquiries to find out if the City could obtain this coverage direct. Wi~h regards to the five yea~ discovery period, if it is felt that this is the minimum period permissible, then'of couPse every effort should be made to p~ovide this coverage in lieu of the present coverage. ~fter s study of the insurance information submitted to the City by the various contractors doing the actual work, I will have further comment on that situation. Please feel free at any time to consult me or request further information as you may require in the best interest of the City. Best regards." Mr. Worthing: "I would again like to call attention of the Council to the fact that Russell & Axon, under d~te of July 2n~, signed by 2~o Russell, in the letter that I Just read ~ few moments sgo~ stated that if the insurance coverage ~as not s~tis~actory to kindly ad~ise them ,nd'they would take necessary steps in an ~ttempt to see that it might. I would like further, 2o s~y ~hat if ybu care rot my opinion] I doubt if you could. get coverage of , ~ive Year plan ~s desired in any in- surance company~ in the country and I still question it.' Feeling along that line I woul~ like to re,d"you the following' teleg~-m received this evening relative'to the f~ct that t~e memor~ndttm of insurance ~o the City of Delrsy Be,ch, ~ co~y of the ~rchitects ,nd engi~eers lia- bility policy and o%he~ [nform*tibn sent bY Russell & Axon"a few days ago disclosed the fact, as Mr. Ad,ms Just informed you, that it does not P.rovid~ for the'disbovery Period of five years. The Following" telegram 'w~s received earlier this ~ventng frgm ~he insurance coverage." City Clerk ~orthing then read said telegram ~s follows: "~ith further reference to engineers liability insurance for Russell and Axo~ consulting~e'ngineers regarding'your Job. I find after research absolutely no policy written which contains a five year discovery period without maintaining a policy in full force and effect for that period. If you know of such a policy we will gua'rantee ,ny extra premium if not the policy must be maintained infull 'force ~nd effect to obtain a five year diScover~ period; ~I did ~dV~se RuSsell and Axon that a five year discovery period~w,s; ineorP~oPated in the contr,ct in my memo of July l%th due to my misunderstanding of the terms of the policy." City Attorney Adams: "W"s 'that from COntinental Casualty, Mr. W~rthing?" Mr. Worthing: '~es, sir. One of their-agents." -~o- s/~9/63 331 Mr. Russell: "It is their agent in'St. Louis where our corporate offices are~" ..... Mayor Diet'z: "But the f.ct remains, and not withst.nding, member m. kihg a phone c,lI here tb your president in St. ~uis, at the time this WaS acted Upon ~nd it w.s up to Russell & AxOn Se DroviHe u~, the City of Delray'Be.ch, with the kind of prOtection~ i~ is a part of the contr.ct dated the 28th of Mn.y, 1963. How they ~? it is their business." City Attorney Adams: "Your Honor, may I JuBt Comm~ent on a couple of other defects that I see offhand. ~lso w~ have Mr. B~oWn in the audience who could further clarify any insurance technicalities. I believe the contract, I believe you:could say that we ~ttem~te~ to get them to apply for retroactive insurance to cove~ the designiph~se, the consulting P~ase and the resident inspectionphase. I don~t think there is any question that there is no retroactive coverage here. An- other one, there is ~ .... from reading it, it is not one continuous policy. It expires every'September, and we are cut off everY time, every expiration date we are cut off. The other points a~$,~of course, the claims having to occur while the policy is in effect, and the claims for damage-must be made during the policy period. That Would me.n that .ny claims we had now we would have to m. ke before September 25th ~pparently, becsusethe policy expires on September 2~th. I do believe that maybe'Mr. Brown cbuld shed a little light on,this, be- cause I believe that ~here is a~ of course,~'to this date I think we have gotten what we bargained for,~ but perhaps .t this..time~maybe there is so~e w.y of obtaining what we w.nt." M~yor Dietz: "We do w~nt this. We contracted for~it ,nd we ex- pect to get it and we expect to get i~ in accordance with the con- tract. NOw, let us hear from Mr. Brown." Mr. Harvey L. Brown: "My point in discussing-this with the City Attorney is that the conditions which we conten~ ~e not present in this insur.nce may be pre~ent but they ~re not ~pparent in the re~ding of the policy.' Now, any ~ssu~ance, either verbally or in writing or in ~nything that is not' m. de .'permanent part of that policy me~ns nothing to myself. I c.st no ~sPersions on either thei~ insurance a- gent or their firm or their bompsny, but it is Just a m~tter of"le- g~lity that unless it is ~ p.rt of the contract of insurance that it means nothing, The proper method 'of coverin~ this, in'my opinioh, is to have the City of Delr~y Beach provide on . direct basis with an insurance comp.ny who is yet to be discovered, I might ~dd, since this is ~ verY limited market. ~ policy of insurance coVerihg Russell & ~xon for the work they do for the City of Delray'Be~ch and no other. Right now .... I have an interest in this as a taxpayer as well as an insurance man, but at the moment, from all appearances the City of Delray Beach is,,~paying a premi~um to provide an increase of liability insurance from ~150,O00.00 to $500,000.00 for all work done by Russell & Axon on ~11 of Shelf contract~. Have you any information that would contradict that, sir?" Mayor Dletz: "That is correct and that was known to the Council at the time. It was brought up by Mr. Ostee~. There lS"no question at all about it, that we knew at the time that we wehe paying this premium that covered not only ours~but all. There was no other thing that we could do and we wanted the ~rotection to the City of Delr~y Beach. No part of that is in a~y w~y --- Russell'& ~xon is not-at fault. The only thing tha~ Russell & ~xon is at fault in, is that they haven't delivered to Us what they ~greed to deliver." Mr. Russell: "Exactly. If I may, in my own thoughts on this matter: Number"l. ~e are n~t insurance men as you know. We rely o~ our insurance ~gent as I imagine .nyone in this room woUld do. H~ advised Us we had .-five ye.r discovery period in our contr,ct. He S,ys he advised us ~nd he did. In Mr. Wenger~s' letter he didn't say he"'h~d it, he'Just t~,nsmitted a copy of our memorandum from our b~oker stating that we h~d it. To ou~ knowledge, ~nd out'broker indicates, that there is only one company in the United States tha$ writes Errors ~nd Omissions Insurance. This is the Continental C~su,tty Company. They do not write a five year discovery period, and of course, obviously nobody else writes one." Mayor Dietz: "We~will take your note." Mr. RUssell: "That' wouldn't help much. Obviously there is cheaper way to do it than that, by continuing the policy in full ef- fect and f6rce." Mayor Dietz: "i.~ only point is this, we went .to great length and there was quite a discussion of what the City of Delrsy Beach wahted ~nd Osteen bantered it back and forth to the point.of where we' called up your president and that was ~6reed. Now, it seems to me that it is up to Russell & Axon to deliver." Mr. Russell: "Sir,' the only way that we can do, as I can see at this point, is to maintain the policy in full effect and force for five years from the date of completion of the construction." Mayor Dietz: "Wait a minute. That doesntt do it either because--" }~. Russell: "Itm not an insurance expert. ----" Mayor Dietz: "But your contract --- the contract is clear. Now, the City has to be protected Whatever the defect isl'' ~ ' ~r. Russell: "It Won't, ab I understand it, that ~s long as you ~intain this polXcy, ,nd we h~ve Been ~gain ,dvis~d by our broker, ~nd I would be glad for-your insurance exp~rt to talk to him.."I would' be very' happy to"get ou~ of this thing b~cause I don~t understand but ,bout h~lf of wh~t I he~r. As I Understand i~ from him, anything which occur~ while we are covered will be paid for as long ~s We continue to maintain the poli~y in ~ull force ,nd effect.' Now, we c~nnot ~o ~nl- thing ~bout the f~ct that ~his e~nnot be isolated to Just Delr~y Be~ch. This C~ntt be. This~is what I have been told." Mr. Brogn: !'As a point of inform~tion, let me re,~ to you exactly what' I ~m basing my convictions oh. I believe it is fairl~ simple tf we take this but Of context. I h~v~ several comments to m~ke on wh~t Mr. Russell has s~id~ This policy applies only to errbrs, omissions or acts which occur within the United States of ~meric~, it's terri- tories or possessions ~nd ~. During the policy period, and then only if claim is first made against the insured during the policy period. Now, I~d like ~o c~ll your attention, that the policy period on the policy which ~ ara read- ing from is September 25th, 1962 to September 25th, 1963. ~11 intents to the contrary, that is this policy period. If an~earthquake struck St~ Louis and the offices of Russell & Axon were swallowed up in the earthquake-we would have no assurance that there would be a continu~-o tion of thepolicy. That's ridiculous I know', but it is merely to illustrate a point. There would be no coverage "B" for any error or omission which courted prior to the effective d~te of the policy and then only, the rest of' that is obliterated. That Is wh, t I was r~- letting to in getting a copy of the policy which was legible. That obliterated part is not really pertinent to my discussion here, but what is pertinent is: 'This policy applies only to errors ~nd omissions or acts which ocur~ed prior ~o the~e~lective d~te of the policy.~ SD we have policy h~re tha~ is ~g~in, September to September. 'Wh~t I ~m sug- gesting ,hd I have m,~e inquiries by telephone ~s late ~s this ~ve~ing on this,'~and by ~he w~y, this wa~ Just brough~ up to ~e yesterday ~nd I will s~y th~t~all of my information is not ~s full and complete"~s I would like %o have it, but I have mad~ inquiry by telephone. I h~ve some lnfohmation on the w~y here by m~il which l~ads me to believe that we h~ve an insur~nbe compan~ which will be able to write ~ policy, I ~m hoping, either on s five year b~sis. In other words, th~ policy base would be September 1st, 1963 to September lst~ 1968, or a policy which will haveincorporated in'~it a ~ontinuous Feature which will involve ~ renewal certific~te-e~ch year~ but in any case something giving u~ continuity of insurance ~o that we'~re not putting our eggs in one basket with a ~ritten contract or an.~greement with Russell & Axon that they will maintain this insursnce. That is not insurance, in my opinion, looking at it from the City's point of view. I am not questioningRussell & ~xon's methods, motives or future acts." M~. Russell: "I will assure you that, as far as I ~m concerned, if he can find it we would be~extremely happy." Mr. Browne "There is an indication right now that there is vailable and ..... " Mayor Dietz: "How soon will you know?" Mr. Brown: '~ gentleman in ~tlant~, Ga. put the informatibn in the mail to me this evehing and ~t involves ~s completing ~ertain iu- formation for the insuraHce company. They w~nt to know what is going on before they say they ~re going to do or not do. Mrl R~ssell is correct, this is ~ very limite~ m, rket. Continental C~s~,lty is one company that writes this insur,nce. Llbyds of LondBn is a second one. There is a third"one c~lled Citizens Casualty Company of New York. That is the Company we ~re dealing with. lt"is not rot sure, but ~e feel Et is possible. If it isn't, we will h,ve to m~ke do with wh~t- ever ~rrangements we c~n." 8/ 9/6 '333 Mr. Russell: "We will do the best we canon it, gentlemen. We are certainly not .... " -' Mayor Die,z: "W~xatever Couhselor, now for the record, whatever we talk about insurance~here, we haven't agreed to anything. RuSsell & Axon has to deliver Under the Contract, and any discussion' that we' have here don't relieve them of an~ responsibility. We hope that you can help them solve it, but ..... ' Mr. Brown: "This is a better way perhaps -,--'" Mr. Russell: "I 'believe the obliterated portion does say that any- thing prior to the effective date provided it was done, that you didn't t~ke the policy out with the knowledge that that was why you were taking it out is covered. So that the designperiod is' covered, and I believe this is correct and I believe that further research will prove thiS. I do, further, feel that from our ~nderst~ndi~g, that by main- raining the policy in effect from fiv~ years from date, ,nything which ocurrs during the time that We h~ve m~intained our Coverage,. will be covered This is my understanding'from our broker ,nd I would prefer that he confirmed any findings or Any opinions that I may give you. Mr.' Brown: "That is"probably very t~ue. I don't contes~ that. My only cOntehtibn is that we h,ve no guarantee of-the renewal of it. Continental C~su~lty"Comp~ny could get very displeased, for instance, with your operation ~nd cancel." ~yor Die,z: "Where does that l~ve u§, Mr. Brown?" " .Mr. Brawn: "I~ leaves'you with A contract that s~ys certain things will.be provided, and ~s far ,s I am concerned they have not been provided." ' Mayor Dietz: "You are getting a letter from a party in Atlanta, ~nd if that were favOrable, then what kind of , period of time are we talking about in moving, to get this thing closed out?" - Mr. Brown: "I would say that if everything is f,vorable, that we could have an answer within seven to ten days. If it is favorable. If it is not favorable we might have to do some Joc~ for position and we still might have a favorable answer within two weeks. Beyond that time if we don't have a favorable answer we are probably not going to get itc" Mayor Dietz asked that M~. Worthing place the item of a report from Mr. Brown on the agenda of the next regular meeting in order that it may not be forgotten. . ~. RuSsell: "Up until the September date, whateverit is', you are covered~ In other words, you are covered now. I will appreciate that anything that he finds, if you would send us a copy we. would sure appreciate it." Mayor Dietz: "Does that satisfy up to this point, Counselor? Is there anything else to be brought cut on insurance?" City Attorney Adams: "I assume the increased premiums to date haven't been paid. That's an aSsumptiOn that I am going on." After b~ing informed by Finance Director Weber that there had been a p~yment' made on the increased premium, City ~ttorney Ad,ms'continued: "That is a good thing to keep ih min~ and We might possibly ask for a credit in the future. Other than that, that's ~bout the only thing we can do." Mayor Dietz= "I think'thAt the intent is there for providing it, but again as Mr. Russell says, they have to find some way to do it. I had A note here, ~Please, Russell & Axon don't bring to this Council a request for a change order on pumps.~ The pumps bo be used on th~se Jobs are the pu~s that w~re specified in the 6ontract'~ I think that they are very good pumps. Don't bring us ~ change Order on pumps be- cause I for one wouldn't vote for it. Take Just what's in your book· We h~ve accepted you one hundred percent ~s to design output, spec. ific~tion output, and that is the pump that we w~nt and it is ~wful important that we have thos~ pumps, that we don't need a lot 'of supply parts, by having uniform pumps. You c~t get a better pum~ than F~ir- banks-Morris and we are very hapD~ W~th them, so don~t send us any change order. We have an open issue here~ ~d Bob b~ought that up earlier in the evening, and that is the paviD~ a~ per contract. The contractors have, in their contract, they must pave the roads and put them back in as good or better condition, There was some talk around here for a while that we might remove th~$ from the contract and then pave the streets. You Are f~miliar with that, Mr. Clifford. You were one of these early fellows in that. My thought now, my vote would be for letting the contractor pave it in accordance with the cbntr~ct"which~You people h~ve drawn up and then when it settles we have ~ m, inten~nce bond -23- ~/~/~3 which we c.h call them b.ck ,bout three hundred dnys afteY the Job is completed, ~nd if the p.rt has gone down due to poor c0mPoction then they Will h~ve to ~Ake it gbod under the ~AintenAnoe bond. 'While on the m-tteu of compaction I -m not too pleased with the comp.otYon on thB Job. I don~t w~h~ to go into the ~etAil of it now, but th~t"'is Wh-~ caused me to Change mY mind on that, and I think that Bob h~s it ~s .n open issuk, .nd he wanted us to bring it before the Council to- night to see what the Council's wishes were and I Just sincerely hope that the rest of you gentlemen will reolize that if it hasn't been' properly cormp~ted it will settle, and if it settles it will dip, ~nd if it dips we hove A maintenance bond to correct thor ~t no cost to the City. I think we ~re ~fer' in doing it that WAy." Mr. Russell: "M~y I s.y that there h.s' been ~ letter written very recently by Mr. Steinhilper recommending that we st,y with the con- tractor on paving." Mr. Avery: "Mr. Mayor, I think that we should review' this. The main reason that this thing came up before and I think that the public should know ond you should remember sir, the m~in re.son that this came up before ~.s your objection to different colored streets." M~yor Dtetz: "That is right." 1 Mr. Avery: "It's true that the cuts will be made. they will be made even .nd in a mAtte~ of . few months will be bleached o~t and you c.n~t tell where they are Anyhow, .nd i move that they stay os in the specifications. "' The motion w.s seconded' by Mr~ Wbodard .nd' c.rriea unohimously. Mayor Dietz: "I would like to make this p.rti~Ul,r statement thor I think it is the intention of this Council to hold everyone respon- sible that the specifications ore followed in all respects one hundred percent from the start Df th% Job ahd no ~inal poyment will be made un%il .11 of the tests ,re mode in ~ccord~nce with the specifications. Th.t is the intention, Mr. Steinhilper, of the Council." Mr. S%einhilper: "There is no'doubt in my mind." Mr, Barrow: "I would like to ask Just one questioh For cl.rifi- c,tion. There was a meeting, I believe, in the City MAn. germs Office And I don,t remember who all were present. We h.d some discussion k- bout the trees and shrubbery that w~s' being removed ~nd bein6p~t b~ck, ond it w.s ogreed to take care of it -nd puZ it back'where it'was. I am wondering if Zhere is' any record bking made of that, so that we know it will be put back· What is being taken out and make"sure it ts put back as far as possible. There were some exceptions mad~ to that of the trees that We did~'t'~ant over the sewers, but the majority of it was to be put back. The only thing I ~m wondering, if somebody on the construction end of it are making a record of this ~nd t.king care of it to mak'e'sUre We get back wh.t we take out." City Man-gar Holland: "It wns my understanding, Mr. Borrow, that the contractors made pictures of both sides of the street. It is on record, ond they were discussing wh.t we would allow b,ck in the right-of-way And what We wouldn't allow'. I believe you kttended that meeting." Mr. B.rrow: "No. I wasn't there. I wasn't called' into that one. They had a meeting and I wasn't in on it,Bob, ~nd if what you say is correct it answers my' question·" Mayor Dietz: "Wh~t did he say?" ' Mr, Barrow: "He said Zhe~ weme making pictures of it." Mayor Di%tz: "But I sow o couple of gentlkmen f row" out there." City Manoger Holland: "I~mpretty sure thotWs correct." Y~. Russell: "They tell me that is-the situotIon~? M.yor Dietz: "Pi6tures are being'made. Who has ~ne pictures?" City Manhger Hollond: "The contr.ctor.' ' ' Mr. Leonar~ Blumke, Vice President of BsrborossA & Sons, Inc." "We sighed - contract with one of your nurserys here in town to take care of all the shrubbery ~nd the trees ~nd everything ond he is to ge~ in contact with one of your City-people who t~kes c~re of the trees"~nd stuff to see which tree~ go b~ck ~nd which ~e h.uled out. He'*h~ put up ~ bond Wi~h our company to do this, to t~ke it out of our w:?y ~nd put it back ~s theCity requires." · IiA- _,* ~ M-yor Dietz: no co yo~ hove some evidence, kit, ~s ~o ~h~t t~ken out of a street ~nd*~hot goes bock? 0ne*place.tt~$ grass~ .n- other place it's pebbles, ahother place it~s**m~l.leuc~ and .... Mr. Blumke: nwa h~ve token pictures in ~11 places where ~here h~s been ~ny doubt in our mind where the people would w~nt th/s b~ck or thot back: flowers, trees or special grass or' anything like that. Where we cbuldn~t detect from their lowns or anything there has been pictures t.ken of these things." 8/z9/63 Mayor Dietz: "Does that cover it, M~. B~rrow?" Mr. Barrow: "So long as it looks nice ~nd is taken care of is all th, t I w,nted to know." Comments were m~de thst the Harry Pepper Company was ~lsotaking pictures before work'was done. Mayor Dietz: "Are Cleary Brothers t~king pictures of wh,t they are doing?" M~.Steirahilper:' "To the best of my knowledge, yes." Mayor Dletz~ "It might be a good thing to query them Just to be sure. There is still a lot to be torn up, So if we sro not doing it, it would be a good thing to get after. You s,w this, did you not, Emory?. W,s this published in the p,per~ It is d,ted. June 2flth ,hd is ~ press release, but the press rel~,ses don't olw,ys get in'the p~per. This is the City's responsibility-~s regards the shrubbery ,nd gr~ss and everything. It Xs signed by M~rk Fleming, the City Engineer." - Mr. Barrow~ "Th~t~s the meeting that I'missed,",nd they tbok c~re of everything at th,t meeting, but I Just W~nt to make s~ that it i~ being followed through with ~hd is'being t~ken c~re of bec~us~ I~ve h~d some criticism'on it. I *m f~mili,r with that press release ~nd if they follow that, we will be p~rfectly happy, but I. Just w~nted to make sure they were doing it, ~nd. I feel that is up to our inspection and our engineers that are doing the wor!~. I w~nted to ~11 it to their attention so that if it bom~p 1,ter where they h~v~ torn out a lot of'shrubbery .nd things ,nd h~ven't put it b~ck or h~U!ed it off or let it die, that c~n get expensive, as we ~11 know." ' Mr. Worthing: "Your Honor, at your request I read that release in a Council meeting for the benefit of the press ~nd the public ~nd m~de known to the press that if they cared to come into the office they could pick up a copy of that. That is the extent of our making Mayor Dietz: "I~m sure there is a lot of people, I. don~t'know how to get it to them, and I have no solution, but there are a lot Of people that don't .know ,bout it bec,use they asked me, and I say that I don't have my folder with me." Mr. B,rrow: "That release covers what we want done and if we ~re following that, th~n I am happy'." M~yor Dietz: "This JUst s~ys wh, t will be put back but it don't say how they' ~re going to keep ~ record of. it." ' City M.nsger 'H°llsnd: -"There were some.items in that meeting that were eliminated to be repl, ced. I think the~e.,re three or four different types of tr~es,~where they existed in the rip,bt-of-way ..... " Mayor Di~tz: "That was du~ to the root system, that is in here." City Manager Holland: "Th,~ w~s released to the press before M~. Worthing even got his copy. Wh~t they did with it, I don't know.""' Mayor Dietz: "I suppose, Mr., Worthlng, that any citizen who wanted it could come in the City Hail affd ge~ a bopy." Mr. ~orthing: Yes, sir. That w~s m~de ~nownhere'publicly. Mr. Avery: "I have ~ question to ask the engineers, There has been some concern expressed by }~. Talbot and I feel it m~selr. Before this contract w~s ever let we expressed the deslre that the East side of the canal Would not be torn updating the season. I would like to know if you have any information available in those, voluminous files which you can tell us or assure us that you have this under control and Just what the schedule is and how it is going to be h~ndled?" ~. Russell: "I will go a little further. We have an outline of a schedule submitted .by the contractor which is not in sufficient de- tail in our minds to submit at this time to the Council. We will be prepared within two weeks to submit a detailed schedule, however, I will read:one other item, if I may, that everybody will understand." Mayor Dietz: "I think there is a clause that after December 1st there will be no work over on the beach." Mr. ~very: "But with this errors and omission ~nd thing,' this could be a critica~ thing and I would like to know that they ~re on top of it." Mr. Russell: "I w~nt to re~d it. It is not only our right but the City's right. 'The work shall be so scheduled as to minimize in- terference with traffic during ~he tourist season.' It' shall'be the contr~ctor~ responsibility'to"'m, int~in tr,ffic on all -rteri~l thor- ough~ares.' The contr,ctor sh,ll submit ~ ~ork schedul~ to the engineer for approvel.~ He h~s done that, but we w~nt more detail before we submit it to you. ~The engineer reserves the right to' reschedule where interference is indic,ted.~ Th~t~s"l. Now 2. ~Provided, how- ever, the City Council reserves the ultimate right to orSer or aIter work schedule~ order not request 'on it's determination that the work is interfering with the tourist season' ~nd so after the submission and our review of this th,t this is to the best of our knowledge, which will be Within the two weeks, then you will.have right to chew it up end give it b,ck, as you see that will be the le,st interference. You are the final Judge. I do think it is very criti- M~yor Dietz: "I thought 'the question you were going to ask A1 is that when the PoWell Brothers run from the park up to the A1A, will they have that done by the end of 0ctober~" Mr. Russell: "I can't answer you, sir. It is scheduled by the 15th of October, sir.~' Mayor Dietz: "That relieves everybodyts anxiety as regards Atlan- tic Avenue. I know the bank is figuring ver~y strongly that that is Mr. Russell= "May I bring up something else? I h,ve here and I have copies for everyone, regarding the outfai1 Mr. Russell.then read the followihg.letter from Russell & Axon, dated ~ugust 29th and signed by Mr. Jack H. Steinhilper. "Subject: Change 0rde~'No. 1, Powell Bros'., Inc. Sewage Works Project-No. 5964-8a Delray Be,ch, Florid, The off-shore ocean outfall line has been inst~lled to Station No. 75 + 1[~ and is at a depth of 102-'feet. This depth exceeds the 91.5 feet required by the plans and specifications. The Powell Brothers, Inc. has requested that this line be terminated at Station No. 75 + 1~ r~ther than extending it on to Station No. 76 + 75. The reasons ere that the maximum re- quired depth has been exceeded ,nd that at or near this station, the ocean floor has ~ rapid drop in grade. Copy of letter ,nd telegram from Powell Brothers, Inc. is attached for your in- formation. The contract price for this item is $82.00 per linear foot. The Powell Brothers. Inc. offers a credit of $100.00 per linear foot deleted from the line. The total estimated deleted length is 130 fe~t, which will give a credit to the City of Delray Beach of $13,000;00.~ Since the required depth h,s been exceeded and the line h~s been extende~ the required length to the ledge, it is re- commended that the att,ched Ch,nge OrSer No. 1, to Powell Brothers, Inc. Contr,ct, be ,ccepted ,nd approved." Mr. Russell continued: "And I migh~ add th,t this w,s discussed with me',nd it cart,inly receives my he,rty endorsement bec,use our whole' b,sis of design'is depth." M, yor Dietz: That will have to be approved by Mr. Lee of~the State Board of Health, because we cell'for forty-four hundred ,nd some feet out in the ocean ~nd this would m, ke it forty-two hundred ~nd some.feet. ~nd we con't give you on ~nswer tonight. Mr. Lee will have to approve any deletion here." Mr. Russell: "We will request a written expression of him.' I wanted to bring this up though while we were here, because w~ have stopped Powell Brothers from going any further until we get an answer on this. I think th,t is within our province, sir." Mr. ~very: "I think any of us, and I certainly wouldn't vote on this without the State Board of Health approval because they ~re the people who governed where we put it in the first place." Mr. Russell: "That is correct." M~yor Dietz: "But again I think that Powell Brothers have cer- tainly done a wonderful Job. They have had good weather, to be sure, but they have a good org~nizetion too and they click like - w~tch. But -gain, we would cart,inly be interested in any proper economy." Mr. Russell: "I think this is a very good offer.from Powell ' Brothers,.that they didn-~t Just give you the ever,ge price they gave you better than the ~verage price." Mayor Dietz~ "I ~emember~Mr. Lee saying that right now he Wbuld not allow the P~lm Beach outfall to be where it goes, he would have ~dded so many feet to it, and that comes ba~k into my mind." Mr. Russell: "Mr. Clifford designed that ~nd I believe ~hat-is 60 feet of w~ter. Zt was eighty feet. That w,s their stand~rd at ' 887 that time. We hav~ established ~ ninety foot sta~dard,~ which m~ybe hfs become their.,~e.n*~r~, but we ~re at one hundred ,nd' two feet now." · '! ' ~mo~ Dletz. Will you bet in touch with the State Office?" Mr.. Russell: "lge will have Mr. Lee Write us or the City, which- ever he prefers, a letter. If he writes such we will transmit a veri~ fax copy of such letter to you."' Mayor Dietz: '"I do think that it ought to be addressed to the t e " City of Delray Beach, not to you. If he writes twb let ers th n. Mr. Russell: "I will tel~ him that the City h~s requested through me an official.letter to them. If he wants to w~ite to us as designers~ that's ~l~ight too." Mayor Dietz: "We, of course, mre going to .bring.Mr. Neff into the picture. We don~t want to go into the details of that here tonight." Mr. Russell: "~t this point I would like to bring Up the subject. I don't particularly want to delsy anything as this has been rather ~ lengthy session. I enjoy them, this is our business. We have no official notification of ..... you asked the questio~ that did we have any objection to Mr. Neff. I indicated that I did not and Mr~ Stein- hilper did too. We do need, not i~mediately, but we do need e ~lar- ~ ification~, of Mr. Neff~s position ~s regards the sewage project.", b .fter ,g~eement by other CounciLmen that the itek'of Mr. Neff e continued, Mayor Dletz continued: "The thought is that Mr. Neff will be employed by the City of De,ray Bench mad will work ~s Mr. Neff out of the engineering department under Mr. Fleming. However,' be will report directly to the Council ~nd at each Council meeting -- regular m~eting -- he will give a verbal report of the progress~that is being made. He will be in sole charge of the sewer ~ctivity hnd you people will deal with Mr. Neff ms it pert,ins to the sewer. P~ym~nts, etc. ~ill go in the ~egular way, except that the Council will h~ve to pass a ~esolution that before ~. Holland gets into the bills Mr. Neff will initial it, ~nd then when Russell & ~xon hms 0.K~d the bills and Mr. Neff has. initialed them, then in the regUlar way they will go to Holland for whatever he does with the bills now. In other wo~ds, the bills come for the final say to Mr. Holland. But'Mr, Neff will'work intensively, and spend ~ll hiStime on the sewer, and I think that we can get back on the tr~ck in ~ sho~t time." Mr. ~very: "'Mr. Mayor, may I ask a question for clarification. Of course, the Council, at our last meeting night hired Mr. Neff with a contract and definite stipulations, is it to be .... I hsven~t been informed on this as to what you gentlemen have .decided but is it anticipated then that Mr. Neff will work under Mr. Fleming, through Mr. Fleming to the City Manager ~nd to us, or is he going to--in name be unde~ Mr. Fleming but actually Mr. Fleming will have nothing to do with him? That is the first .question I would like to ask." Mayor Dietz: "He will report directly to the Council.. He will be employed in the City and will come under Mr. Fleming~s engineering department." Mr. ~very: "But not under Mr.'Fleming himself~ is that it?" Mayor Dietz: "He will techn-ibslly~oome under Mr. Fleming himself." M~. ~very~ "I would like clarification. Will he receive the thousand dollars a month that we voted?" Mayor Dietz: Yes, he will." Mr. ~very: "When M~. Fleming ~ust ge~s ~pproxtm~t~l~ $800.0Oper month. He will be paid more~ and more than the City Manager at this time?" Mayor Dietz: "That is correct." Mr. ~very: "I ~ould like to point out to you~ sir, ~that he is working in ~his'de~artment with ~.~. Mark FleminE as City Engineer. ~. Flemlngis a graduate of Ohio State Unive~sity and , register~d Pro- fessiohal Engin6er in the State of FlOrida. Mr. Fleming has ms nn assistant Mr. D~le Christison who is , graduate of Ripon College'in"' Wisconsin, w~th fifteen years in the City Engineer's Office in K~ns~s City, ten years W~sconsln Highway Commission as resident eng~n~er on drainage, paving ~nd bridge Jobs and is registered in th6 State of Kansas. Now, here comes the big kick, also ~a ~n Assistant Engineer in the same dep~rtment is Mr. William Br~isted. ~.~. Braisted is g~aduate of Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, a very fine Engineering School. Mr. Braisted is registered in New York State, Vermont, New Hampshire, Massachusetts. He is , fellow of ~merican Society of Civil Engineers, for seventeen years for private consulting engineers and ~t that time he was resident engineer on construction of several sewage treatment plants, the last' in St. ~lmon, Vermont, and you ere ~going to put a one thousand dollar a month man in there who is neither fish nor fowl, whose qualificmtion ..... ,ll of these men's qualifications are on file in'the City files and ybu are going to put in the~e a man et one thous,nd d~llars a month, paid mo~etha~ the City Manager, paid more than any m~n in the dep,rtment, ~lmoSt twice ~s much ~s some of the men Xn the dep~tment~ and wit~ no qualifications investigated other th,n thbse qualifications th, t he gave you himself. I say, sir, that ~his i~ ~ ~ig~.ly irresponsible-mo~e on the part of the~~City~'' 'Mayor Dietz. The money will be p,id. out of the sewer and water departments." . City ~ttorney ~dams: "I think the statement~ Just made, not jus~ made, excuse me, Mr. Avery. ' The statement was made that the City h~s ~lready hired Mr. Neff." Mayor Dietz: "That is not correct. The Council has ~uthorized the hiring of Mr. Neff." City ~ttorhey Ad,ms: "As f~r ~s I !~ow he h,s accepted no con- tract and I imagine that will be taken care of at the next meeting." Mayor Die,z: "That is correct." ~ir. ~very: "Will'he be paid without contract, or does his pay start with his-contract? Here ~s the thing that confuses me, sir. I can~ remember so well when yo~ brought him in originally that ---here's a man that is an interestedcitizen who is willing to donate his time. Then the next thing I hear is ..... well now,it would be only fair to pay Mr. Neff a hundred doll,~s a month because he is going to have certain involved ex~.enses, and then the kicker ...... We are going to pay M~. Neff a thousand dollars a month, which might tend to'make some of the public suspicious that maybe ther~ is ~ little p~tron~ge going on. I don't know, but I should think that would be ~n ~ssumption'~on the part of the public. When does his pay start, after his contract or is he going to.work free for us, or what?" Mayor Dietz: "Mr. Neff's pay will start when he is hired by the City. We have authorization for the hiring, and in all w~ys it will meet the legal requirements. We are assured that by Counsel, his own counsel as well as others, and we then hope that we won't get more manholes ...... we'had all of these qualified people around and still we got thirty m~nholes out there that nobody s,w. Don't you think while we were talking ,bout Russell & ~xon, we were very kind~ We had a lot of people employed in the City of Delray Beach ~nd they didn't see ~nything. They didn't see what w~s h~ppening, so that I am not at ,11 concerned ~bout-~ .... Mr. ~very: "I wou!~.like to say this, sir. He will be in the department, but he will~t b~e working under Mr. Fleming, because if he is working under ~. Fleming, Mr. Fleming as s registered engineer must certify his work to be legal from Mr. Neff~s standpoint." Mayor Dietz: "Whatever is done will have to b~ legal, you may be assured of tha~Mr. Avery,'so we won't labor that,~. Avery." Mr. Avery: "Could Z. ask ~. Fleming to come in on this?" Mr. Fleming: "I would like to very much. ~s I understand it, Mr. Neff is to be placed under my employ. To put it very straight, be- cause I am a registered engineer and because the laws of this State require that this work be performed by a registered engineer. say that I have worked with M~. Neff for the past few days and he appears to be well qualified, with a good engineering background. I'm quite certain that Mr. Neff ~nd I could get along very well, how- ever, I am certain that this Council is not going to ask me to rubber- stamp approval of an engineer--a man who is not a regimtered engineer. In so doing, I would definitely risk my own profesalonal registration. I have no right to certify the approval of this man's work'unless I have completely analyzed and studied all or anY'reports that he may give ~nd am willing to stand behind it and certify it as correct. The responsibility is mine bec,use I ~m the registered engineer. Now, I think the Council must re~di~ly re,lize that will involve a considerable amount of engineering Work, which would ~rob~bly be done ~fter hours, and if the Cbuncil wishes to bring this ~bbut I wo~ld expect them to pay ~ reasonable engineering fe~ for'this additional work. In ~ddition to that, it is stated ~n the State laWs that I ~hall be in---that the registered engineer shall be in direct ~nd actual control of the work. I feel that it would be r~ther difficult for me to f~ce ~ committee ~nd state that I was in control of work of ~ m~n being p~id ~t ~ higher rate th~n I am. Therefore, while I would like to wbrk with Mr. Neff ~nd am willing to do so, ~ would have to request that the Council make my remuneration at least one dollar per month in excess of the amount given Mr. Neff." ~. Avery: "Do you consider Mr. Neff any better qualified than the members of your staff?" 889 City Engineer Fleming: "I canlt answer that question, of course, because although I have .applications and.investigations and recommen- dations for the members of mytstaff, I have not even discussed with M~. Neff his qualificstions. It would have to be discussed ,nd in- vestigated, not only by m~self but also by the Civil Service Board." ~ . I~ Mr. Wood~rc. ~ think we are losing sight Of one thing here. We are losing sight of the fact that we have got two functions that are being performed. We havethe normal engineering functions Drovided by the engineering department of the City of Delray Beach which seems to be ,11 that the engineering dep,rtment c~n handle. To say the least, the projects which we ~re now undertaking certainly t~ke plenty of ~ime due to all the red t~pe which is Incurred. We have a separate and distinct full time Job here. 'We have our norm. 1 engineering func- tions ,nd we have the sewer program. Now, the last two ~nd a h~lf hours we h~ve reviewed facts, which those of us ~itting up here are b,sic~lly ~w-re of. They h,ve illustrated sever,1 things. They have illustr-ted the f~ct that there is not adequate liaison among the engineers ~nd the inspectors themselves. There is not adequate' liaison between the inspectors ,nd the City of Delr~y Be~ch, and we ,pp~rently have not h~d ~dequate information going between the inspectors~ the engineering depsrtment ~nd the City Council, bec,use so' much h~s taken plsce that is not in ~ccord,nce with the original c0ntr~ct. Now, th,t leaves me cart,inly, with the feeling that wh~t we need is a coordi- nator who can by his past experience Judge what he sees ,nd wh~t he is told. That he c~n~devote his full time to.the sewer project so that he c,n ~dvise the City M~n, ger ,nd the City Council. Now, ~s I under- stand it the only complaint is with the salary that the~man is re- ceiving, not with his qualifications and not with the need for the man. It seems rather unfortunate that we have to bog down an extremely important project of the City of Delray Beach and one which we could lose a great deal more than the amount of the individual's salary over quibbling about who receives how much money on the thing. I canlt see in any way why Mr. Neff~s employment by the City would interfere with the operation of the Engineering department' itself." City Engineer Fleming: "I thought I made that really clear. That I would have to review ,ny recommendations, ~ny reports --- to phrase it, I can,t quote it, the law ----~any report that contains m~thematics in it is considered ~s professional engineering.~ I would h~ve to certify ,nd be responsible to this Council, by Charter, for the correbtness of ~ny statement made by Mr. N~ff.~ The-responsibility is mine ~nd I think I sm correct technic,lly '.nd ethically in requesting the ..... " M~yor Dietz: "I ~hink you ~re right, if it were An engineering service, Mark, but what Mr. Neff'will be doing is seeing tha~ th~ specifications will be followed a~d that is all. He won't make a decision. He will come to the council and the Council will ~irect Russell & Axon what' to do mighty fast. There will be no delay on that. When he tells us that specifications ~re not being followed this Coun- cil will take appropriate action so that Russell & ~xon will be con- t~cted. You had ~ question, Mr. Barrow." Mr. Barrow: "I think Mr. Woodard covered ~ine." City Engineer Fle~ming: "I would like to say that, in thst c~se, the protection of my registration will not be afforded ~. Neff. will go on record with that statement.." Mayor Dietz: "That's slr~ght." Mr. ~very: "I would like to also state, Mr. Mayor, that Mr. Woodard referred to the liaison breaking down and when the deep analy- sis is made the liaison is broken down because of road-blockS placed between the City ~.dministration, the City Manager ~nd his Engineering Department, and not through the fault of any individual." Mr. Barrow: "Mr. M~yor, I would like to ask s question that still sticks in my mind and I can,t get it out of it. We~ve got thirty holes out here that don~t meet plans ~nd specific,tions. I w~nt to la, ow how we got them, ~nd why ,nd whos~ f~ult it is then if somebody threw ~ to,d-block? I can't help it, and that sticks in my mind, and if somebody threw , road-block, I w-nt to know who?" Mayor Dietz: "Maybe Mr. Neff would get into thbse things that have not been seen since the sewer system st~rted~ and might I say too, that other sewer systems in th~ City ~f Delr,y Beach do not meet the specific,tions ih part. So thatWs wh~t we need, is someone-out there that w~ll see ~hat this sewer that w~s designed, ,nd it is ~ good one, ~nd th~b the'materi,ls that were specified. ~nd they'were good m~te~i- ~ls, that th~.t.goes into the ground, and ~ m.n who h,s spent,., who ~29- 8/29/63 T done the work that M~. Neff h.s, f.r more th.n .nyone iA this room, is well qu.lified to tell the Council whether the sewer th.t is going in there meets the specific~tio~"or not." Mr. Russell: "Concerning Mr. Neffts employment, we h~ve stated previously that we h~ve no objections, or Mr~ Steinhilper h,s stated that he h,s no objection, and I s~y that I have no known objection, ~nd I ,m quite sure th, t ~ would not'h.ve. However, ~ must m, ke our legal ,nd ethic,1 position quite cle,r. We ~re resDonsible'to-'two p~rties in this m, tte~. One is the City Commission of Delr~y body representing the citizens in Delray~ Two is the bondholders. Mr. Neff cannot supplant us in either case. We, as f~r ~s the bondholders ~re concerned, ~re the ~uthorized parties to certify ,ny expenditures of the bond issue funds. Mr. Neffts signature ~s far ns the bond- holders will be superfluous." Mayor Dietz: ~"~s far as the bondholders, bu~ ~s f~r ss the City is concerned it will." Mr. RuSsell: "We have no objection to Mr. Neff acting in ~n advi- sory c,p,city to Mr. ~teinhilper and ,dvising the City Commission of ,ny ,dvioe that he gives Mr. ~teinhilper. We, ~s , firm, however, Mr. Neff will not be, ns I understand this. will not be superintending our work. He will not be inspecting the inspectors, ~nd I believe th~ term h,s been used ,nd I ~hink it w,s unfortunate. We could not ~gree to , situ,tion such ~s that." M~yor Dietz: "Your inspectors come under your men. ,nd in this c~se it happens to be Mr. Switzer. Your sole ~ctivity comes under Mr. Steinhllper ,nd you ~re building from those specific-tions, .nd when you devi,te from bhose specificetions, or there isn't proper t~mping, or there isn.t that, this Council will odvise you right sw,y because he will.~dvise us." Mr. Russell: "In other words, to use 1,y terms, cur reports will be given to the Council ~nd the Council is our boss." M, yor Dietz: "Th~t~s right." Mr. Russell: "Nobody else. The Council ~s ~ group. I w~nt to m~ke that point quite clear. ~-~. Neff isn't our boss -nd if he hired me. I would prob,bly work for him. I me,n I don't know him, but never- theless, he is not my boss ,nd he is not ~.. Steinhilper's boss." M,yor Dietz: "Right now this Council don~t know wh~t is' going on until it is - w~y too 1,te. NOw, if '~e get notificotion tod,y that somethin~ h,s h,ppened, b.ng, we c,n get in there 2nd stop it. As Council~ Mr. Russell: "I~ want that understood. Now, there is one other item that I would call your ,ttention to and it is the fact that you h.ve required insurance of Russell & Axon, so anytime that you over- rule ,n engineerin~ decision of ours ...... " M,yor Dletz: We wouldn't overrule, he wouldn't overrule. ~e would only either accept or s,y stay' with the specifications." Mr. Russell: "You understand what I mean, because I would not w,nt either Mr.-.Neff or any other parties in this City to ge~ the misunder- standing th, t he will in ,ny w,y h,ve the ,uthority to overrule'us." M, yor Dietz: "Nobody c,n change ,nything in those specific,tions except this Council. It is spelled out ~nd it is not the intent to ch,nge wh, t is spelled out either." Mr. Russell'~ "In other words, Mr. Neff~s ,ctivibies will in no w.y e~fect our ~tivities except that he will be ~n individual who Will advise us, .nd very fronkly ~ny citizen of Delr,y th,t'has some ~dvice they 9~nt to give us or some infor~,tion that they w~nt to give us, we will ~ccept it *nd investigate it and °ct'in our best Judgment." M,yor Dietz: "I think you would even be grateful for g6od ~dvioe." Mr. Russell: ~"I wont to~ bring one other thing ~long th, t line, ,nybo~y th~t'h,s anything that they know that is not going right, don't wait ~ d~y, ~ week or ~ month, ~nd'figure we ~re going to find it. Tell us ,bout it.~ We will ~ppreci.te it. Don~t hide it because it won't do ~nybodY ,ny good ,nd it will do everybody h,rm. Do you under- stand wh~t I me~n?" Mr. B~rrow: "Yes, I do ,nd that is whTt we ~re hoping to elimi- nate.'' Mr. Russell: "In other words, h~d we ~own ~bout the m~nholes one d~y ~fter it happened, there would only h~ve been one day of putting in manholes." Mr. Barrow: "Now going back to the manholes ~gain, m~ybe I~m harping on that subject. We hired ,11 the engineers that you s~ld we needed to keep us informed on it .nd they are in there, thirty of them, with the inspectors on the Job. Now you accuse us of not telling you. We were paying the engineers and ..... Mr. R~ssell: "I didn't .ccuse you." Mr.. B-trow: "You s-id to let you know, and if you h~d known in one d.y---.we h.ve got inspectors out there that we thought would let us know, and we were not notified until some thirty .re in%" Mr. Russell: "I will s.y th.t Mr. Neff Or no individu*l will be guar.ntee.' There is no such thing as ~ gu.rantee th.t another error won't be m. de by our inspector, .nd .s wos pointed out, ~. Neff c.n't be everywhere -t'once." M. yor Dietz: "He could be' somewhere within a couple of d.ys. T.lbot." MA~. R~ssell: "I ~gree." Mr. T~lbot: "I Just w.nted to say, George. that if I was in your position I would welcome ~ situation like this. I mean there is ~ long w~y from the top to the bottom." Mr. Russell: '"~e will take all the help that we c~n get, anytime we c~n get it. As . matter of fact, if the Commissioner~ w.nt to work full time for nothing we will be glad to h~ve their help too." Mr. T~lbot: "Th, t~s why I want him. Itve got a Job to do myself. I'm not a sewer man, ,n engineer." Mr. Russell: "I did w.nt to m. ke that point cle.r, We would like . written expl.n, tion, Something in w~iting ~s to his position, con- firming what we h.ve disCussed this egening," -Mayor Dietz: "You should h~Ve that, but~ we c.n~t give it to you bec.use we h.ven~t gotten that f.r, but you will geVit .nd it Will be in writing ~nd it will not transcend .nything, th.t is if~those specific.tions hold. Everythin~ in those specifib.tions .re going to hold. Every test, everything,'-nd if you don~t make them, he will coll us ond we will direct you to m~ke them." Mr. Russell: "I do understand your statement~ that his compensation will Come from the water .nd sewer budget. Is thot correct?" M. yor Dietz: "Yes." Mr. Russell: "We, st this point h. ve no-control over the budget. His s-l~ry is n~t my business." M~yor Dietz. "No' the sewer and w~ter bond fund." Mr. Russell: "Th, t is our business." M.yor Dietz: "Yes, .nd Mr. Osteen is on the tope .t ~n official meeting as well as the risc-1 agents that such ~ thing could be done." ~. Russell: "I would suggest, howe~er, that we would certify it .s a re.son.bio .dministrstive expense, not ,s , re.son-bio engineering expense." M.yor Dietz: "~dministrative only. He Will'do no engineering. He will do no designing. The designing h.s been done. The engineering has been done. Th.t is what we paid you for, We ~,re nOt going to throw that aside. Ail we w~nt to be sure of is that book gets in the ground." Mr. Russell: "I w,nt to make our position clear. We have to certify .ny expenditures. Administrative expenditures which ~ou make, or the Commission's decision provided they .re kept within reosOn." Mr. ~very: "I think the thing has come out this meeting that the m. in thine wrong w.s -dmitted mist.kcs, ~nd I think obvious tb the public th~t'regardless of the cause or carelessness br wh.t-h~ve-you, honest ~ist.kes. I think you, sir', shoul~ m, ke . statement for the public ,bout whether you consider -ny chicanery, dec~it or ~rookedness is going on in the sewer system, if nothing more th~n to e~se the mind~ of th~ public." -' Moyor Dietz: "I th.nk you Mr. Avery. Does ~nyone else have any- thing." The meeting ,dJourned ~t ll:O0 P.M. by order of M,yor Dietz, City Clerk ~PPROVED: M A. ~, D-:R ....